The Restored "the Wolverine" movie mate speculation thread. Now w/ added "Days of Future Present"

[bilbofett]

I am still holding out hope that Marsden's Cyclops will be found waking up on an operating table in the lab of some kind of Sinister Scientist in a future installment

YES!! Sinister/Apocalypse should start to find their way into the franchise(kinda like the ultimate storyline).

[Trekker 42]

As a guy just wanting a damn good X-Men film with Sentinels, I'm going to go ahead and say this:
Fuck. Continuity.
Seriously. Fuck continuity. Fuckity fuck fuck it. If a writer feels like he has to smash continuity to pieces to make a good movie then why the hell not let him? I don't feel that someone should be bound by some other dumbass's mistake when writing their movie. If Bryan Singer feels like he has to get rid of X-3 or XMOW or even the wonders that were X1 and X2 and XMFC to make a good Days of Future Past movie then why the hell shouldn't he? Comic book people get so caught up in what is or isn't canon or where something fits in the timeline that they forget the timeline is irrelevant and that what REALLY matters is creating the best possible story. First Class bucked a LOT of continuity. Oops. Was it a bad movie? Hell. No. In fact I think it may be among top 5 in Marvel films.

So yeah. Continuity? Hell with it. Make the best damn story you can and cherry pick all you want.

And yes I feel this should go for comics as well. If comics did this the whole Clone Saga disaster would never have been a problem.

[matticus396]

I liked the clone saga. Two words, Scarlet, wait for it.....Spider.

But you make some damn good points trekker.

[Nebraska]

I liked the Clone Saga too. I started reading comics because of the FOX Spider-man Animated Series & the Clone Saga was taking place during that time period. I have a fondness for Scarlet Spider. Well actually I have a fondness for the entire cast. In fact, where is my Jackal Minimate?!

[Mirymate]

Oh I know that the intent in XMOW was for the blonde girl to be Emma Frost, and then someone had a better idea. But really, time travel just to fix it? Really? Too much work for a glorified cameo. Do they by the same token need to try and retcon Hank McCoy's human appearance in X1? Too much work for throw away bits. Movies are different from comics or printed novel series, every second is expensive in both story and money. Don't waste them if you don't have to.

What I'm worried about, monk, is something akin to Daredevil. Chief among that movies flaws was trying to do too much in the time alotted to the point that you really didn't give a crap about any of the characters because they had no depth or wieght to them. They were quickly introduced, then on to the next action sequence. Or Transformers as another example: tons of characters, tons of action, 0 audience connection. (so, pretty much just like all of Bay's work) X-3 suffered from this as well, too many things going on, too many plot lines, too many balls in the air and the director clearly could not handle it. Few can. I've seen Singer do some brilliant work, and some has been pretty "meh". I'd rather him try to make a good movie here rather than satisfy my fanboy wishlist.

[bigvis497]

I never had a problem with Hank's appearances in the earlier films as he has switched in and out of his Beast forms in the comics. He's also used disguises when making public appearances. That one's easy to explain.

[hellpop]

Wow, you guys have had some interesting discussions here while I wasn't looking!

I've never been a big fan of Wolverine or the X-Men. I've actually come to appreciate them more as I've gotten older and more well-read, and I can see that the stuff Claremont was doing in the 70's really was atypically sophisticated for the time. The Dark Phoenix Saga is like a master class in long term comics storytelling, and UXM 137 is a genuinely moving story. If only Claremont had left at issue 200!

Anyway, Wolverine... I agree with what Miry was saying about him being most interesting as a killer trying not to kill. I think that you can reconcile the Wolverine that's leading the Xavier Academy and the one that's leading X-Force if you accept that he realizes that sometimes extreme problems require extreme solutions... but I don't know. I think it's really a systemic problem within Marvel Comics, that the creators have allowed the characters to become far too cavalier about maiming and even killing. I mean, I *HATE* that Captain America is ever show to carry a gun outside of WWII. I *HATE* that Hawkeye is shown seemingly having no problem filling bodies with arrows. That flies in the face of EVERYTHING that's been established about those characters. So, Wolverine, an established killer, being shown to now not fighting those instincts quite as fervently? Par for the course, I'm afraid.

As for the movie 'mates, or lack thereof... yeah, not too upset. If I remember, the W:O 'mates did not sell all that well, either at TRU or comic shops. But what did sell really well was the Wolverine comics wave, and DST should definitely try that out again. Look, just make the Silver Samurai. That's all I ask.

[TM2 Dinobot]

I said it before, I'll say it again. I love X3.

[undeadpool]

im just hoping someone will eventually realize that X-men makes a better TV show then film franchise...

Id love to see a WATXM show...Quentin Quire...how I love you

[monkeycrumb]

Oh I know that the intent in XMOW was for the blonde girl to be Emma Frost, and then someone had a better idea. But really, time travel just to fix it? Really? Too much work for a glorified cameo. Do they by the same token need to try and retcon Hank McCoy's human appearance in X1? Too much work for throw away bits. Movies are different from comics or printed novel series, every second is expensive in both story and money. Don't waste them if you don't have to.

What I'm worried about, monk, is something akin to Daredevil. Chief among that movies flaws was trying to do too much in the time alotted to the point that you really didn't give a crap about any of the characters because they had no depth or wieght to them. They were quickly introduced, then on to the next action sequence. Or Transformers as another example: tons of characters, tons of action, 0 audience connection. (so, pretty much just like all of Bay's work) X-3 suffered from this as well, too many things going on, too many plot lines, too many balls in the air and the director clearly could not handle it. Few can. I've seen Singer do some brilliant work, and some has been pretty "meh". I'd rather him try to make a good movie here rather than satisfy my fanboy wishlist.

Miry, Daredevil had far more problems than them trying to "do too much". The fact that the studio interfered as much as they did and forced the director to "make it more like Spider Man" which had recently opened, midway through production hurt it a lot. Add to that a terrible script and bad acting. But, you're also comparing a first movie with a sequel. DOFP does not need to spend a lot of time re-introducing Wolverine, Rogue, Xavier, etc, etc. At this point in the process you should know them already and care or not what happens to them. X-3's problems were more than just the director's fault, even though he does have a large part of the blame. Cyclops was killed off so fast due to his commitment to filming on Superman Returns, either by time considerations or revenge by the studio, or both. Plus, it was scrapped and started from scratch after Singer left, and rushed simply to meet deadlines.

Every X-Men movie that Singer has been involved with has been good. This includes First Class which he was a consultant on. Add to that this does NOT sound like a rush-job to beat a deadline like X3 was. I sincerely believe this could be something special. The ONLY thing to fear is too much studio meddling, but then that's the fear of any movie project.

[matticus396]

Interesting, I didn't know that was why cyclops was killed off so abruptly.

I liked the Clone Saga too. I started reading comics because of the FOX Spider-man Animated Series & the Clone Saga was taking place during that time period. I have a fondness for Scarlet Spider. Well actually I have a fondness for the entire cast. In fact, where is my Jackal Minimate?!

I think there is a good chunk of us, that the only reason we're on this board right now is in part due to what FOX aired for its Saturday morning cartoons.

[Mirymate]

Monk- you're not wrong. But my observations on Daredevil come from what my RL friends call the "wives club's" reaction to the movie. The "wives club" consistes of my comics nerd friends wives, and one husband, who go to these movies to humor the rest of us, but have little to no knowledge of the source material, nor really care to. So they have no idea how "wrong" these movies may be, or in the case of Daredevil how out of character Afleck was. They're just assessing things purely on the basis of what was on the screen. And rewatching it when it came out on DVD, I agree with them.

I am grateful for FOX for inspiring your generation. The animated universe they crafted with X-Men and Spider-Man, combined with the syndicated and UPN series was a real prototype for what Marvel Films has done today. Some really ugly story telling in there, but good times overall. And let's face it, no collection before or since covered as many characters, or went as deep into rosters, as Toy Biz's various 5" scale Marvel related lines.

[Valo487]

The way I see it, the X-Men movie continuity already doesn't match that well between the first 3 and First Class, so if they want to use Days of Future Past to create a new one going forward, go for it. I want to see an X-Men franchise that's a huge deal again, where there's no douchebag executives saying to make it the way they want it as opposed to just making a great film. X-Men was good, X2 was great, 3 isn't nearly as bad as something like Spider-Man 3, but it started going downhill and kept going with X-Men Origins Wolverine. First Class was a major step in the right direction, lets keep going that way.

[Nessex]

The problem one of the problems with X3 was that there was remnants of Singers ideas in there, despite them having scrapped almost everything else.

I memory serves, Singer had planned to leave Magneto out of the film and concentrate on the Hellfire club. A bitter White Queen (possibly played by Sigourney Weaver?) finds an amnesiac Jean Grey and manipulates her to achieve the Hellfire Clubs goals.

Magneto proved popular with audiences, so the studio wanted Magneto and insisted be be brought back as the main protagonist. Yet they obviously liked the idea of Jean coming back too, which is why we ended up with a story that was part Magneto War/Cure, part Dark Phoenix. Either story should have been enough to fill a film on it's own. Both of them proved too much for one film to handle.

Edited February 20, 2013 by Nessex

[Valo487]

I always got the feeling that even though they had set up for the Phoenix storyline to be the focus in 3, when it came time to make it they wanted to do something else and felt stuck with it. I got the same vibe from Spider-Man 3 with Harry Osborn as Green Goblin, but that movie doesn't even have the excuse of a creative team switch to blame for it.

[Mirymate]

Venom was at Sony's insistence. Rami had stated, between 1 & 2 I believe, that he had no intention of doing a Venom story, since he was introduced after Sam had stopped reading comics and Rami did not personally have a good feel for the character. Sony wanted Venom for a possible spin-off franchise, and for Rami to get out of the 60's villain-wise.

Similarly, Magneto and the mutant cure story were both @ Fox's insistence, Magneto was popular, and the mutant cure was, at the time, a very recent story. But they had Franke under contract for Dark Phoenix. They probably could have made this all work IF they had been willing to move their release date back. So add a round robin of writers and directors to the mix. Just given what went on behind the scenes, the movie had little chance of being great, but add in some riddiculous script choices and you have a movie that is a definite big step down from it's predecessors IMO.

And I maintain Wolverine was a fair-to-good movie right up until they got to Three Mile Island, then it just all went to Hell. It falls in the same category as Aliens 4 where if you stop it at the right spot and go no further, you'd walk away happier. (assuming you could somehow earse the ends from your memory)

YMMV

[monkeycrumb]

Miry, I'm curious... you're very well versed on the behind-the-scenes stuff with the Marvel movies, so I would actually have thought you would be championing DOFP. I'm already getting the vibe that Singer won't have as much studio interference and between that and the returning cast I'm personally very excited! Sure, it could turn out bad, but it's sounding more and more like IF it is, it would be Singer's fault, and not a "studio-pressure" or "rushed job" or "lack of budget" type scenario. (Unless he goes really dark and the studio insists on a lot of cuts in post). But he's proven he knows how to handle the X-Men, plus the returning actors know their roles, so there's no question on if they are right for the parts.

If your concern is for the "wives club", there's still Hugh Jackman

I may be conceited about this, but I want this movie for US. I'm tired of the constant retreads and retelling of origins. I want to be treated to a movie that knows the audience knows the score and just *goes for it*. Personally, this to me is why there hasn't been a good Superman movie since Richard Donner's.

X2 is really my favorite X-Men movie. There was a lot going on, with a lot of characters, but I felt Singer gave focus where it was needed. Some of them are more set dressing than characters (Colossus!), but I was okay with that, because some of the actors may look the part, but I doubt they could really act (Colossus!)

As for Magneto, it's been my understanding that McKellan and Singer get along *very* well, and Singer has never felt "forced" to have him in his movies. This thread is the first I've heard of it and if anyone can point me to some story to read more I'd appreciate it.

DOFP is going to be Fox's grab at that Avengers box-office pie. I'm anticipating it getting the star treatment from Fox, and it sounds like they are doing things right so far. My best guess would be that they will try to get another trilogy out of this renewed endeavor. Because really, how much longer can you expect Hugh Jackman and some of the other actors to continue in these roles? Both age-wise and desire-wise? They are not getting any younger.

[TENIME_art]

I said it before, I'll say it again. I love X3.

Two words: Kelsey. Grammer.

[Nessex]

Not that you can always take Wiki as 100% accurate, but it does mention a bit about the Singers original idea being merged with ideas after he left the production:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Men:_The_Last_Stand#Development

[Valo487]

Venom was at Sony's insistence. Rami had stated, between 1 & 2 I believe, that he had no intention of doing a Venom story, since he was introduced after Sam had stopped reading comics and Rami did not personally have a good feel for the character. Sony wanted Venom for a possible spin-off franchise, and for Rami to get out of the 60's villain-wise.

Similarly, Magneto and the mutant cure story were both @ Fox's insistence, Magneto was popular, and the mutant cure was, at the time, a very recent story. But they had Franke under contract for Dark Phoenix. They probably could have made this all work IF they had been willing to move their release date back. So add a round robin of writers and directors to the mix. Just given what went on behind the scenes, the movie had little chance of being great, but add in some riddiculous script choices and you have a movie that is a definite big step down from it's predecessors IMO.

And I maintain Wolverine was a fair-to-good movie right up until they got to Three Mile Island, then it just all went to Hell. It falls in the same category as Aliens 4 where if you stop it at the right spot and go no further, you'd walk away happier. (assuming you could somehow earse the ends from your memory)

YMMV

I think it's funny that Raimi was so opposed to Venom, as I felt like he was one of the only characters in Spider-Man 3 whose motives were clear and made sense. Sandman had his backstory enhanced to make him more interesting and it failed miserably. And I still cry Epic BS that Spider-Man lets him go at the end. After that nonsense I was glad to see the end of Raimi.

[Mirymate]

I guess, monk, it comes down to two things- one, movies with huge casts always worry me as I've said, and two, time travel stories are inherently tricky to pull of well. This movie depends heavily on both. Even with Bryan Singer, it worries me. Wish it didn't, but it does.

X-2 was, until Avengers, the pinicle of super hero team movies. It's still ranks in the top five Marvel films ever.

And Dino & Ten... While I liked Kelsey Grammer as Hank, even more when they chose to use practical effects over CGI, there was just so many things done. just. wrong. in that movie to me. I don't want to go into chapter and verse detail, cause I know you like it, Dino, and nobody likes to hear something they like dumped on. Needless to say, I didn't care for it.

[rabozza]

As a life long X-men fan i have to disagree with everyone on the quality of X-Men & X2. I thought they were both terrible.

I did think First Class was decent though and of all 4 of the movies it was the only one I would personally consider good even though the characters were kind of all over the place as far as the roster goes. To each their own though.

However the Wolverine movie though was easily as bad as Daredevil.

[Twisted Two-Face]

I'm starting to think i'm the one person alive who still loves Daredevil.

[Freaqualizer]

Rabozza, I agree with you the x movies were not enjoyable to me. I was starting to think I was alone.

TTF, I did enjoy DareDevil. I loved the soundtrack.

I'm really not a picky movie fan. I just want to be entertained. There are some movies that the world at large hates, that I love. But in the end, when it comes to an established franchise like comics or books, I just want familiarity. I want to know that the characters I know and love are being represented on screen to match their on page counter parts. Creative licensing only grants you so much good will in my mind.

[Valo487]

I'm starting to think i'm the one person alive who still loves Daredevil.

Do I love it? No. Do I like it? Yes. And not only that, I think all the faults that Daredevil has Spider-Man also had, but people inexplicably ignored in the web-head's case.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Valo487