Who watches the Watchmen?

[TBT!]

I swear to god I want to punch you in your face.

I get the fact the book is above your reading level...but for those of us, who see it for what it is...a true work of literature, that deconstructs the entire superhero mythos...please do us all a favor and shut up.

nuff said

moc847

I have to say perhaps I would have been more tactful but I have to agree, you are obviously not a deep thinker Dinobot and with all due respect you seem to have a "monkey see monkey do" attitude to entertainment.

It's funny to me because you have the same attitude I had to the book when I read it as a young teenager who didn't want more than instant comic book thrills and everything handed to me on a plate. I re-read it recently and found it different and saw a whole bunch of layers and finesse that if you go into it expecting "wham bam thank you mam" superhero stuff you miss.

As a kid Bladerunner was the same way to me, coming off the back of having just seen star wars my expectations didn't match what I was seeing and it confused me. Looking back Bladerunner is one of my all time favourite films, the film was valid I just missed the point back then, however people change and grow and now I love it's themes as well as it's art direction.

Simply put different books/media work for different people (or even the same people at different times), if you need comic porn then fine but if you dont understand the more complex layers that others enjoy then it might be prudent to consider if you dont get something but others do then perhaps it's your perceptions that are limited not hype or the media bigging something up especially when that something has been lauded for this length of time. I'm not saying take everything as brilliant because others say so but perhaps ask what you are missing and why.

As I said I dont want to be harsh dinobot but sometimes you let your mouth run when perhaps exercising your brain more often might be the more prudent option

T.

[TM2 Dinobot]

As I said I dont want to be harsh dinobot but sometimes you let your mouth run when perhaps exercising your brain more often might be the more prudent option

T.

QFT. Okay, I'll bite. Explain to me what I am missing and why. Because I'd like to understand. I just don't see anything there.

Books and movies, oh yeah, I can go deep all day long, discussing the finer details. I liked Blade Runner for that reason. Maybe it's a mental block or something against comics. Heck, I don't know. All I know is I'm confused trying to figure out what the heck everyone's talking about.

[murderofcrows]

As I said I dont want to be harsh dinobot but sometimes you let your mouth run when perhaps exercising your brain more often might be the more prudent option

T.

QFT. Okay, I'll bite. Explain to me what I am missing and why. Because I'd like to understand. I just don't see anything there.

Books and movies, oh yeah, I can go deep all day long, discussing the finer details. I liked Blade Runner for that reason. Maybe it's a mental block or something against comics. Heck, I don't know. All I know is I'm confused trying to figure out what the heck everyone's talking about.

Look I am sorry to be so harsh earlier, but you not understanding something, and calling it boring and dumb and then wishing the film would not release is a shining example of plain old ignorance.

Instead of having someone trying to explain it to you and spoon feeding you...my suggestion is to re-read it, if you need a reference ,guide use the wiki page as a "watchmen for dummies"

My other suggestion is this time, slow down take your time. Read it for the story and (as TBT said) don't look for the "comic porn". If you still don't get it...then I would suggest waiting a couple of years, let them both drop, and try it again.

moc847

Edited January 3, 2009 by murderofcrows

[TM2 Dinobot]

As I said I dont want to be harsh dinobot but sometimes you let your mouth run when perhaps exercising your brain more often might be the more prudent option

T.

QFT. Okay, I'll bite. Explain to me what I am missing and why. Because I'd like to understand. I just don't see anything there.

Books and movies, oh yeah, I can go deep all day long, discussing the finer details. I liked Blade Runner for that reason. Maybe it's a mental block or something against comics. Heck, I don't know. All I know is I'm confused trying to figure out what the heck everyone's talking about.

Look I am sorry to be so harsh earlier, but you not understanding something, and calling it boring and dumb and then wishing the film would not release is a shining example of plain old ignorance.

Instead of having someone trying to explain it to you and spoon feeding you...my suggestion is to re-read it, if you need a reference ,guide use the wiki page as a "watchmen for dummies"

My other suggestion is this time, slow down take your time. Read it for the story and (as TBT said) don't look for the "comic porn". If you still don't get it...then I would suggest waiting a couple of years, let them both drop, and try it again.

moc847

Woah woah woah. Go back and re-read my post. I did NOT say I hope the movie doesn't come out. I'm looking forward to seeing it. What I did say is that it would be highly ironic if it didn't.

Also, let me point out that majority rule does not make right. We aren't sophists. No matter if every person in the world says something is "good" or "right" or whatever example you want to use, it doesn't make it so. Now, I'm not saying that Watchmen was a bad story. I said it was boring, and I don't understand why I appear to be the only one that thinks that. Am I wrong? No. Are you wrong? No. It's a work of fiction. It's objective. There IS NO "correct" answer. Majority doesn't rule opinion.

Now, at the risk of sounding like a total wuss here... your words hurt. A lot of yall have been taking personal pot shots at me lately, and it grating on my nerves. You don't know me. You don't know my life. You don't know what I am or am not going through. You can't know those things. This is the internet, it isn't real. This is a place to chill out, not start WWIII. And yes, I will line up to be the first to admit I deserve it the majority of the time. And I don't mind playing on sterotypes or teasing. It's all in good fun and I laugh. But saying you'll punch me in the face because you're more intelligent than me and my balls haven't dropped? Ouch dude. How'd you feel if someone said that to you? Or your kid? There's playing aroung and then there's intentionally trying to hurt someone.

In amendment to this, I hereby promise to STFU and think before I post, and re-read everything I say at least once out loud. Maybe it'll help all of us.

[buttheadsmate]

TM2Dinobot you'll find that although you might be fairly alone in thinking the Watchmen was boring you are far from being the only one who doesn't think it is ....'the currently popular superlative word which currently escapes me'. I thought it was a good read...no more no less. Majority rule doesn't make it right I'll also agree with you there but you'll find it's difficult being verbose whilst swimming against the tide. For example I have never enjoyed a Star Wars film which never seems to endear me with most Sci-Fi fans but that's how it is. More importantly your comment 'yall been taking pot shots' isn't true although it's plain that 'shots are being potted' but 'carborundum nil illigitimus' . Oscar Wilde once said 'It's far better to be noticed than ignored' .

[Trekker 42]

TM2Dinobot you'll find that although you might be fairly alone in thinking the Watchmen was boring you are far from being the only one who doesn't think it is ....'the currently popular superlative word which currently escapes me'. I thought it was a good read...no more no less. Majority rule doesn't make it right I'll also agree with you there but you'll find it's difficult being verbose whilst swimming against the tide. For example I have never enjoyed a Star Wars film which never seems to endear me with most Sci-Fi fans but that's how it is. More importantly your comment 'yall been taking pot shots' isn't true although it's plain that 'shots are being potted' but 'carborundum nil illigitimus' . Oscar Wilde once said 'It's far better to be noticed than ignored' .

Really? Huh. Go figure. I would have believed that you were a Warsie.

But each of us have things that set us apart from what we like. I like fantasy, a lot. But some of my tastes some people find... questionable. For example, I never got into the Wheel of Time saga, The Dragonriders of Pern, or the Inheritance Cycle (which I find to be one of the biggest rip-offs I've ever read. I honestly HATED it) and those are considered classics of fantasy (at least two are. I don't know if Inheritance is quite there yet). But I also like, nay love, many of the other giants such as the works of Tolkein (at least the works published before his death. After Christopher Tolkein got his hands on it, it began to suck and be sleep inducing. Want the cure for insomnia? Ben Stein reading The Silmarillion.) and the instant classic Harry Potter. Does this mean I'm no longer a fantasy fan? Hell no. It means I have different tastes and I get bored easily. Just because you don't like Watchmen does not mean you're no comic fan nor does it give you cause for being condemned. I am probably one of few who hated Inheritance (but I have a good reason. I can tell you exactly how it's a huge rip-off and should be considered next to plagirism)

And I am a man and I can still say that I like Twilight. Or I did until the abomination known as Breaking Dawn. In fact, this is how I believe one should read the Twilight series: Read up to Eclipse and then say

then they got married and she turns into a vampire eventually. Then End.

There is no need to read Breaking Dawn. Or if you want to read that part that I just mentioned, Start Breaking Dawn and end when they first get to the island and

make love for the first time.

That's all that's worth reading about.

So in the end, all I have to say is that your tastes exclude you from nothing and only make you up for condemnation in a communist or dictatorial society.

God Bless America (and God Save the Queen for you Brits.)

[Punisher]

TM2Dinobot you'll find that although you might be fairly alone in thinking the Watchmen was boring you are far from being the only one who doesn't think it is ....'the currently popular superlative word which currently escapes me'. I thought it was a good read...no more no less. Majority rule doesn't make it right I'll also agree with you there but you'll find it's difficult being verbose whilst swimming against the tide. For example I have never enjoyed a Star Wars film which never seems to endear me with most Sci-Fi fans but that's how it is. More importantly your comment 'yall been taking pot shots' isn't true although it's plain that 'shots are being potted' but 'carborundum nil illigitimus' . Oscar Wilde once said 'It's far better to be noticed than ignored' .

Really? Huh. Go figure. I would have believed that you were a Warsie.

But each of us have things that set us apart from what we like. I like fantasy, a lot. But some of my tastes some people find... questionable. For example, I never got into the Wheel of Time saga, The Dragonriders of Pern, or the Inheritance Cycle (which I find to be one of the biggest rip-offs I've ever read. I honestly HATED it) and those are considered classics of fantasy (at least two are. I don't know if Inheritance is quite there yet). But I also like, nay love, many of the other giants such as the works of Tolkein (at least the works published before his death. After Christopher Tolkein got his hands on it, it began to suck and be sleep inducing. Want the cure for insomnia? Ben Stein reading The Silmarillion.) and the instant classic Harry Potter. Does this mean I'm no longer a fantasy fan? Hell no. It means I have different tastes and I get bored easily. Just because you don't like Watchmen does not mean you're no comic fan nor does it give you cause for being condemned. I am probably one of few who hated Inheritance (but I have a good reason. I can tell you exactly how it's a huge rip-off and should be considered next to plagirism)

And I am a man and I can still say that I like Twilight. Or I did until the abomination known as Breaking Dawn. In fact, this is how I believe one should read the Twilight series: Read up to Eclipse and then say

then they got married and she turns into a vampire eventually. Then End.

There is no need to read Breaking Dawn. Or if you want to read that part that I just mentioned, Start Breaking Dawn and end when they first get to the island and

make love for the first time.

That's all that's worth reading about.

So in the end, all I have to say is that your tastes exclude you from nothing and only make you up for condemnation in a communist or dictatorial society.

God Bless America (and God Save the Queen for you Brits.)

[Trekker 42]

TM2Dinobot you'll find that although you might be fairly alone in thinking the Watchmen was boring you are far from being the only one who doesn't think it is ....'the currently popular superlative word which currently escapes me'. I thought it was a good read...no more no less. Majority rule doesn't make it right I'll also agree with you there but you'll find it's difficult being verbose whilst swimming against the tide. For example I have never enjoyed a Star Wars film which never seems to endear me with most Sci-Fi fans but that's how it is. More importantly your comment 'yall been taking pot shots' isn't true although it's plain that 'shots are being potted' but 'carborundum nil illigitimus' . Oscar Wilde once said 'It's far better to be noticed than ignored' .

Really? Huh. Go figure. I would have believed that you were a Warsie.

But each of us have things that set us apart from what we like. I like fantasy, a lot. But some of my tastes some people find... questionable. For example, I never got into the Wheel of Time saga, The Dragonriders of Pern, or the Inheritance Cycle (which I find to be one of the biggest rip-offs I've ever read. I honestly HATED it) and those are considered classics of fantasy (at least two are. I don't know if Inheritance is quite there yet). But I also like, nay love, many of the other giants such as the works of Tolkein (at least the works published before his death. After Christopher Tolkein got his hands on it, it began to suck and be sleep inducing. Want the cure for insomnia? Ben Stein reading The Silmarillion.) and the instant classic Harry Potter. Does this mean I'm no longer a fantasy fan? Hell no. It means I have different tastes and I get bored easily. Just because you don't like Watchmen does not mean you're no comic fan nor does it give you cause for being condemned. I am probably one of few who hated Inheritance (but I have a good reason. I can tell you exactly how it's a huge rip-off and should be considered next to plagirism)

And I am a man and I can still say that I like Twilight. Or I did until the abomination known as Breaking Dawn. In fact, this is how I believe one should read the Twilight series: Read up to Eclipse and then say

then they got married and she turns into a vampire eventually. Then End.

There is no need to read Breaking Dawn. Or if you want to read that part that I just mentioned, Start Breaking Dawn and end when they first get to the island and

make love for the first time.

That's all that's worth reading about.

So in the end, all I have to say is that your tastes exclude you from nothing and only make you up for condemnation in a communist or dictatorial society.

God Bless America (and God Save the Queen for you Brits.)

Thank you, thank you, thank you very much.

So am I the only one off to petitionland or is anyone else scouring the internet for ways to support the Watchmen film? I even joined a Support Watchmen facebook group which is a glorified petiton, but still, all's fair in love and war and this is WAR!

[TBT!]

*Edited for briefness *

Long rambling rant about fantasy books...

*Edit Rant*

So in the end, all I have to say is that your tastes exclude you from nothing and only make you up for condemnation in a communist or dictatorial society.

So you are saying that it's Dinobots stupidity not his tastes that make him unable to understand the more complex aspects of a book that so many others enjoy?

T.

[Trekker 42]

*Edited for briefness *

Long rambling rant about fantasy books...

*Edit Rant*

So in the end, all I have to say is that your tastes exclude you from nothing and only make you up for condemnation in a communist or dictatorial society.

So you are saying that it's Dinobots stupidity not his tastes that make him unable to understand the more complex aspects of a book that so many others enjoy?

T.

I'm saying that he shouldn't be condemned for not enjoying a book that so many others enjoy. And neither should he condemn us for enjoying it.

In other words: Everybody SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! It's a good book but you don't have to like it! The big news in a Watchmen thread should be the lawsuit not bickering about the ability or inability to find meaning in comic books.

[murderofcrows]

I'm saying that he shouldn't be condemned for not enjoying a book that so many others enjoy. And neither should he condemn us for enjoying it.

In other words: Everybody SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! It's a good book but you don't have to like it! The big news in a Watchmen thread should be the lawsuit not bickering about the ability or inability to find meaning in comic books.

As always you missed the whole point. I told junior to shut up because of this comment

"I'd laugh if people waited SO long to have this movie come out, only to have the project get scrapped at the last yard line. That's called irony right there."

He didnt get the book, and would laugh at the fans (like me) who have waited for this movie come out.

Why even bother to post in this topic if you are not a fan?

thats the point.

moc847

[Trekker 42]

I'm saying that he shouldn't be condemned for not enjoying a book that so many others enjoy. And neither should he condemn us for enjoying it.

In other words: Everybody SHUT THE FUCK UP!!! It's a good book but you don't have to like it! The big news in a Watchmen thread should be the lawsuit not bickering about the ability or inability to find meaning in comic books.

As always you missed the whole point. I told junior to shut up because of this comment

"I'd laugh if people waited SO long to have this movie come out, only to have the project get scrapped at the last yard line. That's called irony right there."

He didnt get the book, and would laugh at the fans (like me) who have waited for this movie come out.

Why even bother to post in this topic if you are not a fan?

thats the point.

moc847

Now THAT pissed me off. I'm saying we shouldn't shove Watchmen down his throat, but that was a very assholeish thing to say. Not even I can defend that and I like to defend things.

[Bob Harris]

I don't want to add fuel to the flames, but throw in my two Euro-Cents worth.

QFT. Okay, I'll bite. Explain to me what I am missing and why. Because I'd like to understand. I just don't see anything there.

Books and movies, oh yeah, I can go deep all day long, discussing the finer details. I liked Blade Runner for that reason. Maybe it's a mental block or something against comics. Heck, I don't know. All I know is I'm confused trying to figure out what the heck everyone's talking about.

I don't know how one can explain how "you get that special something" off of a work of fiction, whatever medium it evokes from. Explain someone why Tchaikovsky's "Overture 1812" is breathtaking, Caspar David Friedrich's "Abend in Wolken" gives you a feeling of augustness, Joyce's "Ulysses" is as outstanding as it is unreadable and Bryan Adams is the most boring artist on earth. I guess, that's not the way it works. What we are able to try is, talking about what one work might offers to it's reader, hearer or viewer, that others might not have and regarding this, it might be a good reason for telling it is a great work of art, but not why someone would actually love it. (Vice verse you might love Bryan Adam's music as well.)

Watchmen in this case offers a lot, I guess, besides the actual story about finding a murder. For sure there is way to much mentionable to be mentioned here, but I'd like to give you some examples, why I'm thinking that this book is a masterstroke. Just take the "Under The Hood" chapters as an example. I've never read anything that came that close to a reasonable and realistic motivation to explain why and how one might come up with the idea of becoming a superhero. The way Mason discusses the pros and cons of wearing a cape are superb! But like I already said, I really love the theoretical stuff, the meta levels others might find boring and sober. (It's work-related.) In that case, take the whole polyphonic structure of the story and it's characters. (Polyphonic is a term of literary criticism, refering to an open dialog, in which "right or wrong" depends on the perspective you adopt. Usually literature, movies and what so ever do use a structure that, at least in the end, offer a solution, a catharsis or what ever you want to call it.) It is pretty hard to create an authentic polyphonic narration and therefore there are few examples. (Dostoevsky's "The Idiot" is the only example that comes to mind.). In Watchmen I guess there is no classical protagonist you are able to identify with completely, like you might do with Peter Parker, Aragorn or the Skywalkers. You can stick to one of the (at least) six heroes only one at a time, as long as you don't want to get in an inner conflict. Trying to accept all of them, I felt like juggling with six balls, but you can only hold one or two in your hands at once. If you hold Rorschach in your hand, you have to give up at least Veidt and Manhattan, and holding the Comedian you're loosing everybody else. And the bad thing is, you have to make a decision. The brilliant thing is, that Moore succeeds in not giving any of his characters or ways of thinking a major advantage. The whole story and it's little episodes are open to the end, and it's up to the reader to find a solution. Not in the book, but in your own thinking. Another thing, and that's the last i'd like to mention is, that it is impressive how Moore is able to comment and reflect things within his story. He not only annotates the whole Watchmen story within itself (Take the the Black Freighter for example as a whole commentary on everything that happens in the non-superheroe world in Watchmen. But there are a lot more of those commentaries.), he also comments on the history of superheroes itself: The "Minutemen" are the typical golden age heroes: strong, physical, stereotypical and with these dumb and boastful phrases. The Comedian is the one who develops from golden to silver age - not only his costume - and for that, the physical golden age hero Hooded Justice has no possibility to attack him anymore. ("This is what you like, huh? This is what gets you hot...") The Comedian works on a whole different level and is able to reflect the superhero status and finaly deconstructs it. You can see that even in the moment the Crimebusters should be set up - of course by golden age hero Cap Metropolis - the Comedian is able to transcendent and develop from silver age to post silver age "hero", leaving even Veidt behind.

These are details I absolutely enjoy in Watchmen and love to talk about - even if English beeing not my native language, I feel a little clumsy explaining these thoughts -, but that won't help anybody to actually "feel" the same.

But if it's that you have problems reading comics as a medium in generall, you might have a closer look at "Understanding Comics" by author Scott McCloud. Maybe that will help you somehow. (But beware: it's a pretty theoretical paper!) I guess comics are the most underrated medium nowadays. It's way more than just reading a book that has lots of pictures in it. I guess it is a whole different way of dealing with a medium.

Edited January 4, 2009 by Bob Harris

[buttheadsmate]

I can assure you that I have read this thread ,in its entirety, many times now purely because for the first time ever I was going to push that 'Report' button because I was so incensed by some of the comments . I didn't because it is now amusing me immensely & serves as a perfect example of how wars start.

TM2 started badly by not emphasising the irony of his post.MOC who justifiably (maybe )assumed that Watchmen fans perhaps were being 'mocked' unfortunately threatened physical violence to TM2 .

MOC ,to his credit, realises that he perhaps overreacted .

TM2 responds with a useful attempt at explaining the misinterpretation of his opinions & expresses(incorrectly) his sadness at being picked on by 'everybody' .

Meanwhile TBT is hovering with his endearing diplomatic use of the word 'stupid' obviously helping to diffuse the situation .

I sit on the fence .

Trekker42 rides in on a white stallion proudly championing free-speech & 3 posts later tells everybody to SHUT THE FUCK UP.....

'the punisher=D' introduces Orson Welles who succeeds in fanning the flames further &.....

MOC & TBT re-enter the fray & point out to Trekker42 'their interpretation' of TM2s faux pas .....

Trekker42 accepts totally the 'decided interpretation of the many' & puts the stallion back in the corral.

Unfortunately I am a mere novice to Internet forum-interaction & therefore I have to actually read the posts The great thing about the printed word is that it is there for all to read,it is however far harder to see what is actually being said.

Edited January 4, 2009 by buttheadsmate

[Bob Harris]

I don't want to skip BHM doing his job as MMMV's Christiane Amanpour ( ), and I don't want to ignore the debate either, and I also do think that the internet is real, since there are human beings outthere reading and writing these thoughts (no offence, TM2! I don't want to argue here!), but I'm not into this whole theater of war, so:

This movie is gonna do for Comedian's blood-splattered Smiley badge what V For Vendetta did for Guy Fawkes masks. Every kid from here to the Falklands is gonna have the damn thing on their backpack without recognizing it's from Watchmen. Paging Che Guevara!

Count me in, NorthRaider!

[Dan]

That looks pretty familiar Bob. :biggrin: You know I have one just like it! Great stuff.

[Deadpool]

I don't want to skip BHM doing his job as MMMV's Christiane Amanpour ( ), and I don't want to ignore the debate either, and I also do think that the internet is real, since there are human beings outthere reading and writing these thoughts (no offence, TM2! I don't want to argue here!), but I'm not into this whole theater of war, so:

This movie is gonna do for Comedian's blood-splattered Smiley badge what V For Vendetta did for Guy Fawkes masks. Every kid from here to the Falklands is gonna have the damn thing on their backpack without recognizing it's from Watchmen. Paging Che Guevara!

Count me in, NorthRaider!

Can you buy it anywhere yet? Cause I will, I'm a merchandise whore.

[MiniFiend UK]

forbidden planet has these badge sets listed for release the end of Jan http://www.forbiddenplanet.co.uk/index.php...21a5dea0ea82ce0

I like the pack with the Dr Manhattan sign

and if you dont mind it not being official merchandise ebay pulled up this watchmen pinbadges

[Bob Harris]

Can you buy it anywhere yet? Cause I will, I'm a merchandise whore.

I did the one in the picture myself. I do have a button-maker-machine-thingy so I just made the yellow smiley button and dropped red ink on top of it, so it's more like the haptic blood drop feeling. In any case, this is way cooler than anything you're going to be able to buy! :tongue:

Edited January 5, 2009 by Bob Harris

[TM2 Dinobot]

Bob, THANK YOU. I know that took a lot of effort to put into words, and that's all I was looking for. I'd never had that explained before, and now I partly understand why people enjoy it so much, in amendment to why I don't. I appreciate your time and effort to sit down and explain that to me. Thank you.

[Bob Harris]

Bob, THANK YOU. I know that took a lot of effort to put into words, and that's all I was looking for. I'd never had that explained before, and now I partly understand why people enjoy it so much, in amendment to why I don't. I appreciate your time and effort to sit down and explain that to me. Thank you.

You're very welcome, Dinobot!

Like I said, there are way more details and ideas to find in Watchmen, I think are outstanding. Go, take your time and re-read it. Maybe this time you won't waste two weeks of your life, but gain an amazing time during the three weeks re-reading!

:tongue:

[karamazov80]

Lawsuit settled.

[Trekker 42]

Lawsuit settled.

You, my friend, have just made my day. MADE MY DAY!

I could dance now. In fact:

[NorthRaider]

Oh, thank goodness. Now to celebrate by converting another comic newb to the Watchmen religion!

(I'm lending my cherished paperback copy to a friend of mine. Hopefully she'll have returned it by March in time for the premiere!)

[SErge]

They are already selling shirts,sweaters,and posters at hot topic, so it won't be long until the badge/button comes out, I plan to get a least two, one of the posters(dave gibbons artwork) and the kool sweater!

but man what a nice customs!