WTF Marvel?

[youbastards]

Black Panther replaces Daredevil in Black Panther: The Man Without Fear

I'm really having a tough time trying to understand the logic that Marvel uses anymore. A year ago, they made a big deal about Daredevil getting the original numbering back, and now they are replacing Matt Murdock with another character, but not even another person wearing the DD suit, a completely different character.

So now, Black Panther is going to continue DD's numbering (starting with issue #513, ala Hulk/Hercules) and eventually Matt Murdock will come back and they can promote a new #1.

As for the character choice, I could get behind this if it were Iron Fist, Luke Cage, Moon Knight, Echo, White Tiger, or any of the other long time DD supporting characters, but Black Panther???

Edited September 15, 2010 by youbastards

[boyd]

Well, they gotta do something with the Daredevil title while the Daredevil: Reborn mini-series is taking place...

I'm guessing that it gives them a chance to establish T'challa as a character again since he's kinda been beaten down since his sister took over as Black Panther. Someone remembered that he used to be a school teacher in New York City, and Bam! - It's a chance to write some gritty street-level urban drama that's like a watered-down HBO show.

I agree that a lot of your other choices would have made more sense, but Marvel has been trying to have a successful Black Panther series for years, and this is another opportunity for them - logic be dammed.

[fnwebslinger]

Sigh.

Here's a little piece of insight from an imageboard I frequently lurk in (*cough*4chan*cough*)

>Oh boy, I sure do love Marvel! Ever since I was a kid, I loved Spider-Man. What's he doing?

Signed his marriage away through a deal with the devil.

>What?!? That is the worst idea I've ever heard! Well, I haven't read X-Men in a while. Nightcrawler was my favorite, what's he up to?

Dead.

>Sh*t. Oh well, at least you guys still have Daredevil! That's always consistently good! At least I know that will still be...

LOL CANCELLED...and Black Panther is the new Daredevil.

>...**** this company.

Funny thing is, I seriously think KRAVEN of all people would have worked here wonderfully.

Edited September 15, 2010 by fnwebslinger

[Rheul]

Black Panther replaces Daredevil in Black Panther: The Man Without Fear

I'm really having a tough time trying to understand the logic that Marvel uses anymore.

OK so I'm guessing that you are new to comics. Let me explain. This is what is commonly referred to as, a "gimmick". This "gimmick" is often used to generate interest/sales in the short term. Some examples of "gimmicks" are...

1.The Death of... (Superman, Batman, Captain America, Supergirl, Robin,...)

2.The New... (Spiderman, Batman, Superman, Captain America, Hawkeye, White Tiger, Ghost Rider...)

3.(Batman's, Spiderman's, Wolverines The X-Men's Thor"s) ... New Costume

4. The Return of... (Bruce Wayne, Johnny Blaze, Ben Grimm, Bucky, Clark Kent, Clint Barton, Jason Todd...)

Given time the "gimmick" will run its course and the status quo will be restored allowing us all to sleep soundly at night knowing that change is never permanent in comics.

[MiniFiend UK]

Am I going to point out the elephant in the room? Seeing as you can see DD's chin in his costume isn't going to be a bit obvious to villains/reporters/man on the street that its a different guy under the mask with the different skin colour.

I have to say sometimes comic decisions do make me scratch my head and wonder how smart the ppl at the decision end actually are.

Ok just watched the clip. So its going to be BP in BP costume. I can follow that I misread I thought it was going to be BP in DD's costume like what they have done before

Edited September 15, 2010 by MiniFiend UK

[youbastards]

OK so I'm guessing that you are new to comics.

Well, I would hope that the 25+ years invested and, 80+ longboxes in my basement including a near-complete run of Daredevil might elevate me at least to the title of 'ensign' or 'rookie' at this point, hell I'll even settle for 'novice' or 'greenhorn'.

My comic book pedigree aside, usually the point of a "gimmick" is to boost sales. Does anyone care enough about Black Panther as a character (let alone the readers of Daredevil?) for Marvel to think this move would help them financially, even in the short term?

Replace Cap with Bucky, ok... I can understand the logic of that, there's history. Former partner-turned-misguided villain takes over the shield of his mentor and attempts to redeem himself and continue his mentor's legacy for the country that needs him.

Replace Batman with Robin/Nightwing, again...there is a logic and history behind the decision. Former protege who has already made a name for himself steps into his mentor's cowl to honor his legacy and provide Gotham City the protector it needs.

Replace Daredevil with Black Panther...no logic, no history, no way to generate positive buzz about the project. Completely unrelated character takes the tagline and issue numbering of another character and moves into his section of the city to fight crime.

We all know that nothing is permanent in comics. I'm fine with that and it's one of the things I love about comics. It's a medium that you can take an established character and tell any kind of story you want. If the story plays out well, fine, I'll happily eat my words. If the story bombs, then it's just another example of the people in charge being out of touch with what the readers want.

Edited September 15, 2010 by youbastards

[karamazov80]

So. . .Kraven's alive again? That kinda sucks. Kraven's Last Hunt was a good yarn.

Comics are lame nowadays.

[hellpop]

OK so I'm guessing that you are new to comics.

Well, I would hope that the 25+ years invested and, 80+ longboxes in my basement including a near-complete run of Daredevil might elevate me at least to the title of 'ensign' or 'rookie' at this point, hell I'll even settle for 'novice' or 'greenhorn'.

My comic book pedigree aside, usually the point of a "gimmick" is to boost sales. Does anyone care enough about Black Panther as a character (let alone the readers of Daredevil?) for Marvel to think this move would help them financially, even in the short term?

Replace Cap with Bucky, ok... I can understand the logic of that, there's history. Former partner-turned-misguided villain takes over the shield of his mentor and attempts to redeem himself and continue his mentor's legacy for the country that needs him.

Replace Batman with Robin/Nightwing, again...there is a logic and history behind the decision. Former protege who has already made a name for himself steps into his mentor's cowl to honor his legacy and provide Gotham City the protector it needs.

Replace Daredevil with Black Panther...no logic, no history, no way to generate positive buzz about the project. Completely unrelated character takes the tagline and issue numbering of another character and moves into his section of the city to fight crime.

We all know that nothing is permanent in comics. I'm fine with that and it's one of the things I love about comics. It's a medium that you can take an established character and tell any kind of story you want. If the story plays out well, fine, I'll happily eat my words. If the story bombs, then it's just another example of the people in charge being out of touch with what the readers want.

Agree 100%. As a Black Panther storyline this could have worked; tying it to Daredevil makes no sense. This whole "there's a new Man Without Fear" thing... whatever. Near as I can tell it's not generating much interest at all.

Unfortunately, the lack of permanence in comics means that storylines have no impact. We know that the status quo will be reestablished sooner or later, so we tend to view change wearily and warily. Comics companies now blatantly lie to us (as in when Marvel insisted that Spidey revealing his identity was permanent), because they know the readership base is desensitized. We all know that Wonder Woman's going to eventually go back to the classic costume, so why bother investing in this new direction? When you sell stunts rather then stories, that's what happens.

And, am I crazy, or didn't they have Iron Fist dressing as Daredevil just a few years ago?

[youbastards]

And, am I crazy, or didn't they have Iron Fist dressing as Daredevil just a few years ago?

Nope you aren't crazy, and that story arc was one of the better DD stories of the last few years. Matt Murdock was 'outed' as being Daredevil, so he abandoned the costume to clear his name. Another costumed DD showed up and it was later revealed to be Iron Fist working with (correct me if I'm wrong) Dakota North and Ben Urich to help protect Matt's identity.

Say what you will about his 'huge crossover events', the Bendis run on DD stands as one of the best runs I've ever read, right up there with his Alias series and Miller's run on DD.

[Lurch77]

In a totally unrelated story, Mickey Mouse is the new Spider-Man, Goofy is the new Capt America, Donald Duck is the new Iron Man and Wolverine is actually Oswald in disguise.

[Rheul]

OK so I'm guessing that you are new to comics.

Well, I would hope that the 25+ years invested...

My point is that if you are a comic fan you should know that stuff like this is done all the time to drum up interest, get people talking, and to have folks create threads on their website of choice to discuss the subject. Looks like its working so far. I stopped reading DD when Bendis left. I had no clue BP was taking over this book until I read this post. Nobody should be surprised by something like this. I have a friend that bitches and moans every time a hero dies, is replaced or gets a new costume. He is no novice but damn, you know this is temporary. Why complain?

As for why Marvel is going to have BP take over the DD book. They have almost the same powers. People who enjoy DD should enjoy BP for the same reasons. Especially if you put him into DD's environment. Im sure they will spend some time weaving their stories together. They wont just have BP show up and take over. Ya gotta go with the flow, otherwise you sound like "The Comic Book Guy" from The Simspons.

[youbastards]

Ah ok, so what you're saying is, if I enjoy

then I should also enjoy

[hellpop]

Say what you will about his 'huge crossover events', the Bendis run on DD stands as one of the best runs I've ever read, right up there with his Alias series and Miller's run on DD.

Daredevil is probably Bendis' best work (at least mainstream work) though I never read the whole thing because I gave up reading his stuff years ago. Yeah, I'm a Bendis hater, though I've mellowed a bit. I actually read House of M not that long ago when I found a cheap copy and found it to be much better then I expected.

My biggest problem with him is that he is, to my mind, writing comics for which he has no aptitude. He's not a guy that can find the individual voice of a character or project he's working on (like, say, Roger Stern), but rather one who tries to ram his perspective in even if it's a poor fit. He is, I think, a terrible fit for the Avengers; at the same time, though, he's taken them from Marvel's second tier group (behind the X-Men) to the forefront of the line, so what do I know.

That square peg/round hole conundrum is one that Marvel has suffered a lot during the Quesada years. They simply seem unable to recognize that some writers (and artists) don't mesh with some characters. Mark Millar, for example, was a terrible fit on the Fantastic Four, because the things that make his work exciting and interesting are not the things that will work with the FF. Not that this is a recent phenomenon; John Byrne was a perfect fit for the FF, and a terrible one on Superman.

So, anyway, Bendis on gritty, street-level vigilantes= fine, Bendis on big sweeping superhero sagas=not fine. Feel free to disagree!

[youbastards]

Hellpop, you are correct. If you like his gritty, street-level books, then check out Jinx and Torso if you haven't already read them. Also, he wrote some great Sam and Twitch comics for Image back in the day, those were my first introduction to his work.

[Trekker 42]

I like Ultimate Spider-Man. I really really like Ultimate Spider-Man. I think Bendis has captured the voice of Spidey perfectly and the stories are suitably fantastic.

[youbastards]

Yeah, the initial 100+ issues of Ultimate Spidey were gold, although I really lost interest in and stopped following the Ultimate line after "Ultimatum".

[pawcanada]

I know DC is just as bad, but frankly ever since Marvel cancelled some of their best books (Captain Britain and Incredible Hercules; WHY CANCEL HERC?! Every page OOOZED of win and awesome and extra win!) they've slowly been dying in my eyes. Add to the fact my favourite hero growing up had been going on an interesting route (new powers, new friends, public unmasking) only to undo that with a deal with the devil that also booted out his marrage as well as send him back to the 70's. News flash - I never cared for 1970's Spidey. I grew up reading the Bronze/Dark age and while it may have been home to some of the crap stories (i.e. Clone Saga), they're the ones I cherish MORE than the Silver age stuff. If Marvel decides to cancel the cosmic and remaining mythological side (i.e. Thor) I think I might just cancel all my remaining standing orders :/ I know DC is just as bad but so far I find myself really enjoying Booster Gold, Green Lantern, The Flash and Superman.

[dj87]

I know DC is just as bad, but frankly ever since Marvel cancelled some of their best books (Captain Britain)

I'm glad someone said this... and a Brit no less. Captain Britain and M13 was great fun, real shame it stopped after Vampire State

[battlecat]

Yeah, the initial 100+ issues of Ultimate Spidey were gold, although I really lost interest in and stopped following the Ultimate line after "Ultimatum".

No question that Ultimatum was part of Loeb's master plan to bring down Marvel from the inside, but Ult. Spidey hasn't suffered for it, still one of the best comics on the stands...

ever since Marvel cancelled some of their best books (Captain Britain and Incredible Hercules; WHY CANCEL HERC?! Every page OOOZED of win and awesome and extra win!)

They didn't really cancel Herc so much as move it into consecutive miniseries (Fall of an Avenger, Prince of Power and upcoming Chaos War) -- you should check them out if you haven't, Prince of Power was great!

[Mnemosis]

Here's how I see the BP/DD situation... they're trying to port Matt's cult fan following over to Black Panther, for whom they simply can NOT find a voice. Making him an Avenger means ignoring the character's personal responsibilities. Giving him his own book about Wakanda means stories no one cares about. By taking him back to his NYC roots while his sister rules Wakanda, they can make him relevant to the MU and build a fan following for him. Then, with the right scribe, they could kill off his sister and move him back to Wakanda, and he'd have a built in following of fans to take back with him and make Wakanda relevant. In the meantime, Matt Murdock will have his own stories that people will still eat up.

Ultimately, it's not a bad idea, really. It doesn't flow well, no. But from a logistics standpoint, there's a damn good chance it will turn T'Challa around as a marketable character for Marvel.

So. . .Kraven's alive again? That kinda sucks. Kraven's Last Hunt was a good yarn.

Comics are lame nowadays.

And yet Grim Hunt, bringing him back, was a pretty damned enjoyable yarn.

No question that Ultimatum was part of Loeb's master plan to bring down Marvel from the inside, but Ult. Spidey hasn't suffered for it, still one of the best comics on the stands...

Ultimatum did not read well, no. But it DID reset the stage for what Loeb's been doing in the Ultimate U since, and THAT has been pretty great.

[pawcanada]

I know DC is just as bad, but frankly ever since Marvel cancelled some of their best books (Captain Britain)

I'm glad someone said this... and a Brit no less. Captain Britain and M13 was great fun, real shame it stopped after Vampire State

What do you think drew me to the series in the first place . I'm quite fond of British superheroes and really wish I knew of more from DC (bar Knight and Squire. I have no interest in Batman so I couldn't care less for British versions of him and Robin). Heck part of the reason I back Mon-El is because he's kinda, sorta, to a degree, if-you-squint-hard-enough British (apparently his voice sounds different from the rest and if he says "I'm British" people would say "Ahh yes, that is a British accent").

ever since Marvel cancelled some of their best books (Captain Britain and Incredible Hercules; WHY CANCEL HERC?! Every page OOOZED of win and awesome and extra win!)

They didn't really cancel Herc so much as move it into consecutive miniseries (Fall of an Avenger, Prince of Power and upcoming Chaos War) -- you should check them out if you haven't, Prince of Power was great!

In my eyes, unless a new Herc series comes out of Chaos War, then one of my favourite comics has been cancelled. The spin offs were great, especally Prince of Power (which did a great job of exploring both Cho and Thor's relationship with Herc) and I'm looking forward to Chaos War, especally the Ares mini series (I hated the fact my favourite Dark Avenger was killed by my second favourite, only for him to die two issues later while annoying people like Wolverine and Daken got away scott free). All is forgiven if we get Incredible Herc back but I have this horrible feeling in my gut that we won't

[buttheadsmate]

I know DC is just as bad, but frankly ever since Marvel cancelled some of their best books (Captain Britain)

I'm glad someone said this... and a Brit no less. Captain Britain and M13 was great fun, real shame it stopped after Vampire State

I have great respect for both you guys & therefore respect your opinions but.................

.............were we reading the same books ?????

Foggy ol' London town,stand-off outside parliament ,magic with 'k' tacked on to the end,Stone-f*cking-henge,Captain Midlands .

[Trekker 42]

Yeah, the initial 100+ issues of Ultimate Spidey were gold, although I really lost interest in and stopped following the Ultimate line after "Ultimatum".

No question that Ultimatum was part of Loeb's master plan to bring down Marvel from the inside, but Ult. Spidey hasn't suffered for it, still one of the best comics on the stands...

Agreed. Ultimatum is the latest in what I call The Incredible Saga of Jeph Loeb's Loss of Talent. Seriously I refuse to believe the man who wrote The Long Halloween, one of my favorite comics ever, wrote that garbage. Ultimatum had fantastic art. But the writing was bad. Bad, bad bad.

However, after the badness of the bad Ultimatum story which, I believe I said, was bad, we get the best villain I've seen in Ultimate Spidey since they killed Norman fully fleshed out. I always thought Mysterio was a fun villain. He was always kinda cool in the regular comics. But the Ultimate Mysterio... my God that's a cool villain. He doesn't have the greatest motivation (be a flashy Kingpin and get some money) but the crimes he pulls off are worthy of Wil-E Coyote getting something right for once. I loved every minute of the Mysterio arc and managed to get that in before my local comic shop closed down. I now need to wait for the next group to go TPB and continue my collection.

[elhonez]

Yes. Ultimatum was embarrassingly bad. Complete disregard for the universe. Characters acting... well, out of character. A lot of arbitrary deaths to ratchet up a body count for shock value. If someone told me a 10-year-old with ADHD plotted Ultimatum, I would believe them.

Nice to hear that the Mysterio arc was all it was hyped to be... I gave up on the Ultimate U after Ultimatum. Which trade or trades do I need to pick up to read the Mysterio arc?

And to make this post relevant: I like minimates, and Mysterio is one of my favorites. Also: Did you know that Falcon is the only figure that Mego produced that Art Asylum has yet to produce? (not counting Conan, who isn't part of the license)

[hellpop]

Add to the fact my favourite hero growing up had been going on an interesting route (new powers, new friends, public unmasking) only to undo that with a deal with the devil that also booted out his marrage as well as send him back to the 70's. News flash - I never cared for 1970's Spidey. I grew up reading the Bronze/Dark age and while it may have been home to some of the crap stories (i.e. Clone Saga), they're the ones I cherish MORE than the Silver age stuff.

While I agree that the thinking and execution behind the Spidey reset are terrible, Brand New Day has actually turned out some very good Spider-Man stories. Slott is really a terrific Spidey writer, and I'm glad he's going to become the only writer soon. The biggest problem is that they've tried SO hard to go back to "classic" Spider-Man style that the book has often felt very forced. But there's been some good work in there.

And while everyone's bemoaning recently canceled Marvel titles-- Agents of Atlas, anyone?