Comic Book Talk

[karamazov80]

Wow! I thought Wayne was dead for good [/sarcasm]

[Mirymate]

It's "real". In a move a startling originality, Bruce will be traveling through time back to the present. If it doesn't sound familiar, then you didn't read Steve Rogers recent return to life along the same lines. When they "killed" Bruce, replaced him with Dick, I thought it smacked of "me too". But to bring him back in such a similar way... and they wonder why long time fans are so cynical.

[vbpanizzi]

I was mostly annoyed that they replaced him with 'Dick' because it has pretty much been established that Master Richard does not want the role. That was the whole reason he left to go to Bludhaven, so he could stop being in Bruce's shadowy shadow. Then the whole little brat thing made me just a little more mad.

[battlecat]

It's "real". In a move a startling originality, Bruce will be traveling through time back to the present. If it doesn't sound familiar, then you didn't read Steve Rogers recent return to life along the same lines. When they "killed" Bruce, replaced him with Dick, I thought it smacked of "me too". But to bring him back in such a similar way... and they wonder why long time fans are so cynical.

I could be totally wrong as I didn't read either storyline, but I think DC showed Bruce stuck out-of-body in the past at the end of Final Crisis, before it was revealed what had happened to Cap... god knows which script was written first though.

[Mirymate]

I could be totally wrong as I didn't read either storyline, but I think DC showed Bruce stuck out-of-body in the past at the end of Final Crisis, before it was revealed what had happened to Cap... god knows which script was written first though.

I will try to pair this down, but it was a really complex plot. And since all of this is probably considered spoilers:

In the recent miniseries bringing Cap back to "life", they explained that the "bullet" Sharon Carter used to "kill" Cap was no normal weapon, but a micro time displacement device. (Sharon was shown to be under the hypnotic influence of Dr. Faustus, who in turn worked for the Red Skull) Everyone commented in story when Cap first died how strange it was for Cap's "body" to have withered and deteriorated so quickly between being declared dead on the Captiol steps and when they unzipped the body bag at the morgue, yet all genetic tests indicated it was Steve's body, not a clone or a fake. That's because essentially the "magic bullet" sent Steve through time, replacing Steve in our time with with Steve's future dead body. The Skull then planned on using Doom's Time Platform to retrieve present day Steve, and use Zola's mind transfer machine to place his consciousness in Steve's body. Steve's friends interupt the Skull's plans and shut down the Platform not knowing what exactly the Skull was up to, but figuring it must be bad. But the Skull had already "locked onto" Steve in time and was in the process of retrieving him when the Skull's plans were foiled again. This caused Steve to essentially "Quantum Leap" to and from random points in his lifetime, including apperently his own future. The Skull decides to let Osborn in on the plan, which puts the Skull back in contact with Doom, Doom retrieves Cap, Skull tries to take Cap over, Cap kicks Skull's arse once again, and Steve is hail and hardy back in the present.

Bruce was sent back further in time than Steve, and is going to make a more linear trip through time, stopping periodically to be Knight Batman, Pirate Batman, ect. till he gets home. Another Morrison stated tribute to the sillier days of the late Golden and early Silver age comics.

[Nestlé]

Miry, I think battlecat was saying DC had hinted that they were doing the time travel thing with Bruce BEFORE they revealed it with Cap.

Either way, they're both rip offs of Booster Gold's "death"

Seriously... I don't give a damn. Grant Morrison blows. Anyone who wrote Final Crisis shouldn't be allowed to write comics anymore.

As for Dick being Batman... Sure he was rebellious at some point, but he grew up. Classic story of, well everybody.

Paul Dini has made Dick a great Batman (no thanks to Grant Morrison)... It was too short. Poor Dick.

[TBT!]

It was too short. Poor Dick.

Snicker!

Was it longer than during knightfall when Dick wore the costume though?

(I've kind of given up reading DC recently as it seems like the whole Batman thing is a complete mess!)

T.

[karamazov80]

Wow. That Captain America "rebirth" story is even stupider than I thought it might be. That couldn't have been Brubaker's idea, was it? I understand that he brough back Bucky, but damn. . .that's really stupid.

[Turtle]

I was mostly annoyed that they replaced him with 'Dick' because it has pretty much been established that Master Richard does not want the role. That was the whole reason he left to go to Bludhaven, so he could stop being in Bruce's shadowy shadow. Then the whole little brat thing made me just a little more mad.

Yeah, I've always liked that Dick became his own man, and I especially loved that the name Nightwing originally had a Kryptonian origin. It showed that Dick was inspired by more than just Bats, and that he wasn't destined to just follow in his old mentor's footsteps. I kinow that's out of continuity now, but I like it.

Wow. That Captain America "rebirth" story is even stupider than I thought it might be. That couldn't have been Brubaker's idea, was it? I understand that he brough back Bucky, but damn. . .that's really stupid.

The thing with Brubaker's run is that, like pretty much every other comic book ever, the story is completely and totally ridiculous and sounds especially so in the Cliff's Notes version. It's all about mood and suspending that disbelief.

[karamazov80]

Yeah, that's how the Bucky return is so weird. Sounds stupid. Is stupid, actually, But he made it work. But the Cap return just seems to take the cake, and I can't imagine how it might work. Maybe one day I'll read it to see for myself.

I also recently realized that Brubaker did the comic Sleeper, that I picked up the first TPB for years ago. Anyone know if the subsequent volumes are worth picking up?

Edited February 21, 2010 by karamazov80

[Mirymate]

Wow. That Captain America "rebirth" story is even stupider than I thought it might be. That couldn't have been Brubaker's idea, was it? I understand that he brough back Bucky, but damn. . .that's really stupid.

The thing with Brubaker's run is that, like pretty much every other comic book ever, the story is completely and totally ridiculous and sounds especially so in the Cliff's Notes version. It's all about mood and suspending that disbelief.

It was Brubaker's intent. The clues are there, all through the run. And like Turtle said, it's all in the execution, the mood, and the pacing. I was just trying to condense clues and plots from Brubaker's whole run into a paragraph that got the main points across. Trust me when I say it's a much, much better read than my pitiful synopsis implied.

[Nestlé]

It was too short. Poor Dick.

Snicker!

Was it longer than during knightfall when Dick wore the costume though?

(I've kind of given up reading DC recently as it seems like the whole Batman thing is a complete mess!)

T.

Yes, it's been longer than that. Bruce died a year ago during Final Crisis. By the time he's back it'll be a year and a half. Still, during that time Dick had to fight for the Batmantle and all that.

The common misconception is that the best thing DC has going for it are the big 3. DC really shines in it's use of minor characters. What DC really has going for it is how much it focuses on characters like Booster Gold, Mera & Question.

I'm not buying bat books but I still find myself spending too much every month on comics because of their ability to work with no names.

That said, Paul Dini still writes a great Batman and Greg Rucka's Detective Comics (starring Batwoman) is very highly praised.

I was mostly annoyed that they replaced him with 'Dick' because it has pretty much been established that Master Richard does not want the role. That was the whole reason he left to go to Bludhaven, so he could stop being in Bruce's shadowy shadow. Then the whole little brat thing made me just a little more mad.

Yeah, I've always liked that Dick became his own man, and I especially loved that the name Nightwing originally had a Kryptonian origin. It showed that Dick was inspired by more than just Bats, and that he wasn't destined to just follow in his old mentor's footsteps. I kinow that's out of continuity now, but I like it.

That's actually still very much continuity. Nightwing gave up the mantle of Nightwing when the REAL Nightwing returned. For those of you who aren't current in DC Kandor was returned to it's former glory and now their are 100,000 Kryptonians alive. They've created a "New Krypton" and *Spoiler* will be going to war against Earth in a few months.

[Turtle]

In the old continuity, Superman and Jimmy Olsen, inspired by Batman and Robin, created the identities Nightwing and Flamebird in an adventure in Kandor. They later teamed up with Batman and Robin. When he left the Robin mantle, Dick remembered the Nightwing name and took it up in an homage to both Batman and Superman. I totally forgot that in post-Crisis continuity the name comes from Kryptonion legend.

So who is the REAL Nightwing? I'm all kinds of not current in DC at the moment. DC makes it frustratingly difficult to stay current.

[karamazov80]

Nightwing gave up the mantle of Nightwing when the REAL Nightwing returned.

OK. Thanks for clarifying

[Mirymate]

DC and continuity... two things that haven't gone together since the real Crisis. Since then, its a game of what's in, what's out this month. Here's to hoping GJ's promotion brings some stability over there.

So, basically Dick Grayson is in a catch 22. With a Kandorian running around playing Nightwing, he can't go back to that name. Dick won't want to go back to Robin, and if Bruce Wayne is alive, then the clock is ticking on how long till Bruce takes back over as Batman. Guess he'll just retire again. Or they'll kill him... or the Kandorian... or both.

And Dick can't go back to Bludhaven... they blew it off the map. Or to be more specific, Captain Atom blew up, and finally got around to turning evil like DC wanted to do ages ago, and that was pretty much the end of that town. Not that I minded, it was kinda cool to see that old story revisited, if a little over the top destructive.

[dj87]

Miry, I think battlecat was saying DC had hinted that they were doing the time travel thing with Bruce BEFORE they revealed it with Cap.

Either way, they're both rip offs of Booster Gold's "death"

Seriously... I don't give a damn. Grant Morrison blows. Anyone who wrote Final Crisis shouldn't be allowed to write comics anymore.

As for Dick being Batman... Sure he was rebellious at some point, but he grew up. Classic story of, well everybody.

Paul Dini has made Dick a great Batman (no thanks to Grant Morrison)... It was too short. Poor Dick.

thats one of the best posts i've ever read on here. Dick has been a great Batman. It was obvious Bruce would be back sooner rather than later; i'd been looking forward to the event, until i heard who was writing it. Morrison is awful... Damian Wayne? Prometheus? urgh

[Nestlé]

DC and continuity... two things that haven't gone together since the real Crisis. Since then, its a game of what's in, what's out this month. Here's to hoping GJ's promotion brings some stability over there.

So, basically Dick Grayson is in a catch 22. With a Kandorian running around playing Nightwing, he can't go back to that name. Dick won't want to go back to Robin, and if Bruce Wayne is alive, then the clock is ticking on how long till Bruce takes back over as Batman. Guess he'll just retire again. Or they'll kill him... or the Kandorian... or both.

And Dick can't go back to Bludhaven... they blew it off the map. Or to be more specific, Captain Atom blew up, and finally got around to turning evil like DC wanted to do ages ago, and that was pretty much the end of that town. Not that I minded, it was kinda cool to see that old story revisited, if a little over the top destructive.

I know Captain Atom turned "evil"... But that didn't have anything to do with Bludhaven, did it?

If memory serves, the brotherhood of evil dropped Chemo on Bludhaven.

[Turtle]

Chemo destroyed Bludhaven in the Infinite Crisis THEN Captain Atom redestroyed it during One Year Late in the Battle for Bludhaven. I didn't read the story with Captain Atom, but it involved the Atomic Knights and Command-D. First chemo then radiation... I smell a metaphor.

[Mirymate]

You know, when they blew up Coast City what feels like a million years ago now, it was shocking. Now... Star City, Bludhaven twice, Marvel's Soldier Field and Stamford, seems like you can't have an "event" anymore without a big civilian body count. It's not almost expected. >sigh<

[Nestlé]

You call "The Battle for Bludhaven" an event?

Miry, I've gotta call you on your statement:

You're looking for things to complain about. Off the top of my head the only major DC crossover I can think of that destroyed a city was infinite crisis.

Sure, Bludhaven twice is a little rediculous, but who cares?

[Mirymate]

You call "The Battle for Bludhaven" an event?

It has a title doesn't it? :tongue:

Miry, I've gotta call you on your statement:

You're looking for things to complain about. Off the top of my head the only major DC crossover I can think of that destroyed a city was infinite crisis.

Sure, Bludhaven twice is a little rediculous, but who cares?

Oh I do love a good kvetch session, don't get me wrong. But I am tired of lots of civilians being killed as part of story lines and especially in big events. Saw it coming into main stream book when the Authority did it, and was lauded for it. Then Ultimates headed down the same road, also to rave reviews, and into New Earth and the 616 it came. I don't like it. Not going to pretend I do. Didn't like it when Watchman and DKR brought us the grim and gritty period that swept across the omniverse. But the pendulum always swings back to the kinds of books I'd rather read, so I'll bide my time. (and aren't they in the process of re-destroying Coast City with giant lanterns and hordes of evil zombie lanterns as we speak?)

Let me be clearer: I am a little harsher on DC than I am on Marvel right this minute, especially the Batman story line because it feels like a copied story line from Marvel. Is it? We'll never know. Both Vision and Red Tornado first appeared within a couple of months of each other. Ditto Hal and Tony giving up their costumed ID's to black men with military backgrounds around the same time. Who copied who, if anyone? We'll never really know. But there's a part of me that's still not over the Crisis on Infinite Earths, and it bleeds into my view of their books to this day. Can't help that. Not going to apologize for it.

And truth be told, I'm not happy with either company right now with guys like Morrison, Loeb, and Bendis being given carte blanche to do as they will. Didn't lie it when the used to hand it to John Byrne either. But until Blackest Night, I was less unhappy with Marvel than DC. Now between Siege and BN, they're running close to even again.

[karamazov80]

Comics ain't what they used to be, that's for sure. Too much gimmicky crap including shocks for the value of having a shock. But then, maybe these guys have just run out of ideas. . .

[minijeff]

Comics ain't what they used to be, that's for sure. Too much gimmicky crap including shocks for the value of having a shock. But then, maybe these guys have just run out of ideas. . .

man do I know what you mean here....I picked up 4 of my regular comics this week and after reading them felt no satisfaction what so ever....which is scary since one of them is my fave current title

and yes there seems to be a big event every couple months or at least a couple times a year, be it universe wide like Blackest Night or smaller scaled stuff like the upcoming X-Men second coming stuff...I kinda preferred the good old days when comics just told stories...maybe a few multiple parters....but man when stuff like Maximum Carnage and X-cutioners Song started rolling across multiple titles for upwards of 10 parts things started to change a bit..

after the feeling I got this week I might find myself moving more to the TPB pick ups as opposed to the weekly floppy books which is something I really am not too interested in, I love floppies

Jeff of the Miniacs

[karamazov80]

That brings up another issue for me. I only really do TPBs for newer comics nowadays. There is a simple cost issue, and the fact that you don't have to wait an entire month to get to the next part of the story, but the biggest issue might be that single comics released nowadays are so much shorter than they used to be, that it does feel like you are getting half a comics' worth of reading in each one. Keep your fancy waterproof paper, and give me something that takes me more than a couple minutes to get through, I say.

I was reading through some of the old, early 60s Marvel stuff recently, and those comics were HUGE. Of course, things got economized a bit through the 70s, 80s, and 90s, but today. . .good lord. I picked up an issue of Hulk and was literally finished in less than 5 minutes. Even if the story sucks (which it did), at least give me some story.

Oh, bother.

[Turtle]

...but the biggest issue might be that single comics released nowadays are so much shorter than they used to be, that it does feel like you are getting half a comics' worth of reading in each one. Keep your fancy waterproof paper, and give me something that takes me more than a couple minutes to get through, I say...

That is one of the reasons I don't pick up monthly comics. (That and the other two reasons you mentioned, but this is the only one that makes me mad.) It is so incredibly unfulfilling. The last time I bought a monthly (years ago), I was pretty peeved that I paid full price for what should have amounted to a back-up story. In trade-form, it all feels nice and normally flows oh so well (but not always). I recently read something (I can't remember what) in TPB and the pauses were so awkward between issues. I went back and reread one issue at a time with breaks in between, and it suddenly became great. Like I said, I forget what it was, but I was very impressed with the serial writing skills involved. Too bad they didn't mesh quite so well in TPB. (I wonder if maybe it was something by Bendis. This is more parentheses than I have ever used. Subconscious speaking to me?)