The Wrestling Thread

[hellpop]

Cena seems almost guaranteed to loose, since he's set to have elbow surgery and will probably be out for awhile. Of course, they could always keep the title on him and keep him on tv without having him wrestle.

[karamazov80]

He did that before fairly recently, didn't he? Where he missed several weeks in a row anyway, and one PPV performance I think?

[karamazov80]

I forgot freakin' HHH is the special guest referee. My initial thoughts when that was announced was that HHH would screw Bryan. Reason being, in his role as executive, HHH would really want a 'roided up talker like Cena over a smallish wrestler like Bryan. I still think that might happen. I see Bryan losing straight up, or winning and Orton cashing in. I wish I could imagine Bryan winning here and keeping it, but I just don't think McMahon will go for it right now.

[hellpop]

This was a great show. Really, really great. I'll put details in a spoiler tag, but know that Punk vs Lesnar was incredible. Best match I've seen in a long, long time. Del Rio vs Christian was also really good, and IMHO better then that other title match.

Bray Wyatt beat Kane in probably the worst match of the night. The Ring of Fire thing was more distracting than anything, and the story of the match was much more about whether Harper and Rowan could get in the ring then what was going on inside. They finally did, using an asbestos blanket to put out the fire. Took Kane out with the ring steps afterwards.

Cody Rhodes beat Damian Sandow. Pretty good match. Highlight was probably Cody hitting a muscle buster on Damian (which looked much better then the Cross Rhodes, which got the pin). Cody shaved his mustache, by the way.

Alberto Del Rio beat Christian in, as I said, a great match. Back and forth the whole way. The story of the match was that Del Rio was working over the arm, which (as the announcers adroitly pointed out) set Christian up for the Cross Arm Breaker and impacted his ability to use the Spear. Christian finally did hit a Spear, but hurt his arm in the process; he sold it so well, it looked to me like he'd dislocated his shoulder. Del Rio was then able to roll him into the Cross Arm Breaker, and Christian finally tapped. Good stuff.

I was reading a comic book during the women's match. But it didn't seem too bad, relatively speaking.

Punk/Lesnar... as Joey Styles used to say, Oh my God. So, so good. Lesnar beat Punk with an F5 right on a chair. Punk had Lesnar beat at least twice, though, once with a GTS (Heyman broke up the pin) and once with the Anaconda Vice (Heyman broke that up too, and Punk finally got his hands on him. He put Paul in the Vice, but Lesnar hit him with a chair shot, leading to the finish). Brock did a great job making Punk look like a credible threat to him, and Punk sure took a beating. Match of the Year, I'm calling it now.

Ziggler and Kaitlyn beat AJ and Big E. Zig Zag to Big E. Match was fine, actually got a pretty good reaction considering where it was in the card. It just makes me sad that this program was such a throwaway. My prediction that Ziggler would turn and reunite with AJ didn't happen. Sadly.

And in the main event... Daniel Bryan pinned John Cena after... a knee? I think? Finish kind of came out of nowhere (Bryan really needs to establish a non-submission finisher). I thought the match was all right. Better then all right, I guess, but I personally don't think it lived up to expectations. Maybe it was that the ending was so telegraphed, so the match itself seemed more like a means to an end. But I will say that I don't think John Cena really had his head in the game. He just seemed to be going through the motions at times, and didn't do a good job at all of selling Bryan's submission moves. He did seem more bothered then usual by the crowd (which was so heavily pro-Bryan it's unreal). Not up to the standards of either of his matches in 2011 with Punk.

So Bryan won, and began to celebrate. Cena shook his hand and left. Hunter stayed, raised his hand, cheered him on. This went on for awhile. I wonder if they dragged out the celebration to make us think Randy Orton wasn't coming out. Well, Randy Orton came out. He walked to the ring and stared Bryan down. Bryan, for his part, dropped the title and told him to come on. Orton turned away and walked halfway up the ramp. And then, as everybody but I guess Daniel Bryan and the announcers expected, Triple H pedigrees the new champ. Orton comes back down, hands Hunter the briefcase, flips Daniel over, and that's all she wrote on Daniel Bryan's first title reign. The crowd, despite being so in to Daniel Bryan, didn't seem to boo either heel turn. I guess they liked the "surprise".

Oh, Miz's "hosting" of SummerSlam consisted of three vignettes, each of which were interrupted by Fandango. They were a waste of time, but worth it for Summer Rae's outfit. Yowza.

Edited August 19, 2013 by hellpop

[karamazov80]

I thought the Bryan running "high knee" was actually pretty bad-ass. Looked like it hurt like a mother.

Wish I was wrong about this one tonight. I think I let myself think that for about 10 seconds, too Well, at least Bryan can say he was former WWE champ I guess.

[hellpop]

Definitely did look like it hurt. If that's a new big move for him, I'm fine with it. I just wish they'd established it beforehand.

One thing I thought was really cool is that Shawn Michaels really put Bryan over in that little panel thing, acknowledging that he'd trained Bryan. I wonder if Shawn will show up at Raw tonight, and serve as an on-screen mentor for Daniel at least in the short term. I think that could be pretty awesome.

[karamazov80]

Sort of like how Jose Lothario helped HBK in a mentoring capacity in the buildup to the Bret Hart match? Would be some real friction there if that was the case, seeing as how HHH screwed Bryan.

One thing I thought a lot of last night was Chris Benoit, and his Wrestlemania match where he won the title (not saying Bryan did or didn't for anyone who doesn't know ). The small technical wrestler with years of experience grinding it out, against the 'roided establishment of the WWE (Cena/HHH). Finally getting what seems like a legit chance after years of being a mid-carder. Then there was Bryan's frequent explosiveness, the flying headbutts, the multiple german suplexes, the submission hold bearing a strong similarity to the "Crippler Crossface." Obviously Bryan was significantly impacted by Benoit (and in many ways Bryan is the contemporary Benoit in the ring), but last night I perceived more subtle references to him than usual.

[hellpop]

Yeah, HBK with Lothario was exactly what I was thinking about. I think Bryan could use a second, and someone from the establishment to counteract the "this guy sucks" stuff we'll undoubtedly be getting. The only problem would be if HBK and HHH overshadow Bryan and Orton... not saying there's any reason for that, for those that don't know.

Can't say I thought about Benoit all that much, save for the diving headbutt (which always makes me think of Benoit). I think he and Danielson are pretty different, actually. Benoit always struggled to connect with the crowd, despite his ability, because he just didn't have a lot of personality out there. Bryan is just dripping with personality. His intensity strikes me as of a different variety then Benoit's, but then again I guess I'm just picking nits. I don't know who would be a historical analogue to Daniel Bryan. He's pretty unique.

[karamazov80]

They are certainly different--Bryan didn't try to mimic Benoit in the way that Benoit tried to mimic Dynamite Kid, for example--but the way they tell a story in the ring is very similar to my eyes. Obviously, mic skills were never Benoit's strong suit, though he did have a level of unspoken intensity and charisma that helped to propel his popularity level in my opinion. I think HHH's involvement last night really made that analogy jump out to me. As if he was there when both of these guys finally got their break. And it made me wonder if he supported them behind the scenes in some way to help allow for it.

[hellpop]

He's certainly a big supporter of Bryan behind the scenes. It's been cracking me up, all the people that think HHH forced the booking to keep Bryan down. If anything, he's using his star power to help raise the guy even higher. That was the plan with Punk two years ago, and it didn't work out well, but there's no reason to think this will be a repeat.

[karamazov80]

Even though in terms of look, HHH was a pretty prototypical WWE champ when all was said and done, he had to work to get where he got. As Jean Paul Levesque in WCW, as the Blueblood, and then as DX. So I can see him having real respect for guys who weren't just bodybuilders that were handed opportunities. Besides, it really is good for business--pushing Bryan, but also drawing this thing out (as much as it pains me to see ).

Edited August 20, 2013 by karamazov80

[hellpop]

I agree. People often talk about Triple H sleeping his way to the top, without realizing that he made it to the top long before he started sleeping there.

Really liked all the McMahons stuff tonight. Steph was great in the opening segment (and looked especially fetching tonight). Loved Hunter in the end segment. Could have used more from Orton, but I bet Triple H used up all his time. Man, they are pulling out all the stops to make Daniel Bryan the most sympathetic babyface ever.

But I gotta say... my favorite part of the night was Punk calling out the fat guy that was heckling him. Ah, Punk. Still the Best in the World.

[karamazov80]

Yeah, this feels like a "hard sell" to get a good guy really over Seems a bit unnecessary to me, considering how over Bryan already is, but I guess it can't hurt to essentially pit the entire company--all wrestlers and management--against him.

[hellpop]

I think (hope) that they have learned from the mistakes with Punk's push post-SummerSlam two years ago. If you remember, they did basically the same thing, with Punk beating Cena, then having ADR cash in on him. But they did that to try and split Cena and Punk into two separate programs, with Cena chasing the title and Punk challenging the WWE hierarchy. But they made two big mistakes: one, nobody really wanted to see Cena chase the title; and two, they didn't turn Triple H heel. Punk lost a lot of momentum because he was calling out Hunter, as the representative of the WWE, and Hunter was getting big cheers in his responses. It's basically the same program, but with the champ and the corporation united, and with them all clearly despicable. I really wish they'd done this with Punk the first time, because frankly I'm a bigger CM Punk mark then I am a Daniel Bryan mark.

I have a feeling that Paul Heyman may be getting Ryback to continue his feud with Punk. I can imagine him coming out next week, saying that Axel isn't the right man for the job, and that to take out Punk once and for all he doesn't need a wrestler but "a bully". Cue Ryback. At least there's be a payoff of some sort to those stupid bullying promos. Thing is, Ryback's credibility is shot. He's a nothing. And his matches with Punk last year were terrible. He's gotten better, and the dynamic would be different now that the heel/face rolls are reversed, but still... Ryback. Ugh.

One other interesting thing from Raw: Sin Cara apparently dislocated a couple fingers on that dive, and that's why he quit the match. Dave Meltzer said he "couldn't even describe" the amount of heat on Sin Cara for that.

[karamazov80]

I didn't even catch the Sin Cara match. So he just stopped working the match before it was done for what most wrestlers consider to be a minor injury?

Unfortunately, because Ryback now just seems like any given mid-carder who would job for any given headlining wrestler, I don't know if he could work well for Heyman. Anymore than, say, Tensai could. But Axel isn't working frankly. He sort of reminds me of Ted Dibiase, Jr., in that he's getting a push because of his dad, but he just does not seem to have "it."

I think there were a few things working against Punk way back when. I think splitting time with Cena is a recipe for disaster, because Cena would always overshadow the other guy to some extent. And HHH as a foil was a problem, so maybe this turn is a response to that. But maybe the biggest issue I saw was that those guys were feuding with Alberto del Rio. A serviceable heel, but I don't think he's all that special, and I don't think he ever generated enough real heat so that people were as invested in Punk/Cena beating him as they otherwise could have been. In fact, during Punk's entire tenure as champ, there were very few feuds that I remember very well, because he had various mid-card-level heels he would feud with, beat, then go on to the next one. WWE needs a Harley Race, a Roddy Piper, a Big Van Vader, an ECW Shane Douglas, or a WCW Rick Rude. The best they have (apart from Lesnar, who can't be a really consistent presence) is another great former heel--Triple H. Problem is he's not a full time wrestler of course, but the McMahon family as a foil. . .that's going all out. That's what shot Austin into the stratosphere. Maybe Orton can be a good heel wrestler, as well (the Rock to Bryan's Austin). He was pretty good in the past with his kicks giving guys concussions and whatnot. But I do think WWE needs to work harder on establishing genuine, headlining heels. ADR ain't gonna cut it in my book.

Edited August 20, 2013 by karamazov80

[hellpop]

I've actually been enjoying ADR a lot more since his latest turn. I don't think the character's all that different, but his ring work has been more memorable, more intense. But I agree that I don't think he'll ever be that top-level guy. I wonder, if they'd have given him the same backing when he took the title from Punk that they are giving Orton now if he would have worked. But probably not.

Yeah, the Sin Cara thing... he was in a match with ADR. Right at the beginning (no more then a minute in), Sin Cara sends him to the outside, then does a dive on ADR. He immediately signals to the ref, who crosses his arms (the signal to the back for a legit injury) and the trainer comes over (the same guy that Cena was talking to early in the WWE title match). It looked to me like they might have clonked heads, and that Sin Cara might have suffered a concussion, but apparently it was the finger thing. Weird thing is, Del Rio got up and continued to attack Sin Cara for a bit, before the ref got him away. Not sure if he didn't know about the injury or was just mad. Anyway, Del Rio then cut a promo, much like the one from SummerSlam (filling time?) before Ricardo came out, and said that he was now with a REAL hero... Rob Van Dam. What an odd pairing.

Yeah, Axel's been a big dud. When he was introduced as the new "Heyman guy", I thought they made a real mistake in putting him with Heyman rather then Cesario. Wouldn't Cesario with Heyman and Axel with Coulter in the Real Americans make a lot more sense?

[karamazov80]

That's a great idea. Cesaro would be an awesome enforcer. And the only thing he's lacking is mic skills due to a non-native tongue. He's as good as anyone in the company in the ring, is tougher than nails, and has great non-verbal charisma and intensity. Axel floundering with Swagger would seem appropriate.

Ricardo with Van Dam? WTF?

[MiniFiend UK]

I can see Ricardo with RVD a little in the way of having bill alfonso back in ECW but as a face pairing. God there was times watching ECW I wished someone would superkick Alfonso's whistle down his throat.

[hellpop]

I'm not against RVD having a manager, but... Ricardo? If you didn't see the clip, it's really weird. ADR cuts a promo about being a hero for Latinos, and then Ricardo comes out, says he's not a hero, but now he's with someone who is. And you're expecting it to be Rey Mysterio, but... Rob Van Dam.

[hellpop]

Soooooo... ppv this weekend... how are we all feeling about this thing? I haven't been watching Raw religiously, and didn't turn it on until the main event because E-A-G-L-E-S EAGLES!... pardon me... but I think things are pretty good overall. I like that the Daniel Bryan vs the PTB storyline has incorporated more and more players, but I don't like that it's taken the focus away from Daniel Bryan. I mean, at this point I want to see Big Show knock out Randy Orton or Triple H more then I want to see Bryan win the title back, and that's not right. I do hope that they are building to some kind of big match at this Battleground show, and War Games would be great. Bryan, Show, Ziggler, Miz and a returning Cody vs Hunter, Orton and the Shield. Why did I include Miz? Because he'd sell out and betray the Super Friends, of course. And I'm ready to see Punk finish up with Heyman and get involved.

[karamazov80]

The Bryan angle does seem to have lost some steam due to the focus on Big Show IMO. My assumption is that Big Show will be forced to cost Bryan the match at the PPV. I couldn't tell you what many of the other matches are. Punk against whatshisface and Heyman at the same time is one. I'm guessing Del Rio/RVD (hopefully Ricardo turns on RVD, or otherwise finds a way to just. . .do something else ). Cody Rhodes may make an "unofficial" appearance. Divas tag match of some kind? Then various mid-carders (SHIELD, Miz, etc.) tossed together in matches to fill time.

I haven't been able to catch entire Raws recently, but one thing from this last week that was really, really good was the Cesaro/Santino match. Cesaro did a move he used to do a lot in ROH where he grabs the guy's legs then spins him around about 50 times before walking away without passing out/falling over. Bryan used to do airplane spins similar to that. The crowd was REALLY into this match, particularly after that move. They love Cesaro, and rightly so, so I wonder if McMahon et al. can ignore this for too much longer before they realize they need to be pushing this guy.

[hellpop]

Cesaro's spot is the most baffling thing. He can do really unique things that pop the crowd (the airplane spin, the huge uppercut, the Superplex where he lifts the guy up from the apron), and he's charismatic in the ring if not on the mike (and I think he's fine on the mike). And yet, he's stuck in a jobber tag team with a gimmick that doesn't even fit him. My hope is that they are planning to split him off from Swagger and Coulter and make him a babyface, but I still think they completely missed the boat by not putting him with Heyman (and Axel with Coulter and Swagger). I'd REALLY be looking forward to Antonio Cesaro vs. CM Punk this Sunday.

Divas have a 4-way with AJ defending against the Total Divas bitches cast. I still don't get why AJ is a heel. I mean, she's great in the role, but don't you want to cheer for AJ? You've also got Ziggler vs Ambrose for the US title (should be great), and a tag team turmoil match with the winner taking on the Shield later that evening (I'm betting on the Prime Time Players). Probably Miz vs. Fandango... ugh.

Yep, RVD vs Del Rio's on the card as well. Which they set up by having Rybeck squash RVD on Raw. Sigh. The rumor now is that Big E's going to turn face and feud with Del Rio, which I think could be really good. Del Rio's really won me over since he turned heel again, though I might be the only one.

Oh, and if you didn't hear, the big news yesterday is that Jim Ross "retired" from the WWE....

[karamazov80]

I just read that today. Lame. Heyman should have Cesaro viciously attack Hennig and leave him in a dumpster or something, then take his spot.

[JeffBohn]

It made me dizzy watching it!

[karamazov80]

Well I'm extremely surprised, and very happy with the outcome of tonight's main event.