Video Game Discussion

[TBT!]

Neo,

Thanks for playing along... as always it's curiousity rather than the need to pick a fight that gets us to this point!

I've been taught that if I don't understand something then to question it until I do... (that's why I've never really seen eye to eye with most religions)

We always get to the same spot and then it's agree to disagree - Although your last post mostly agree's with me

You are right there is no black/white and life is grey but in order to meaningfully discuss it I had to polarize it somewhat.

I guess what I really wanted you to do is to question where the line is and why you place that line there, CoD4 is close to GTA4 in terms of graphic quality and you were condemning one but not the other.

I'm interested in the replicating real life angle that you're trying to put across, Movies or TV are still way more 'real life' than video games but there is little fuss about killing in those, but I suspect that is because they are passive entertainment rather than interactive. Surely it's the action of taking a life not the quality of the graphics that defines it? Perhaps it's just that by keeping it remote in a galaxy far away and made out of bricks gives you enough of a comfort barrier to deny what you are doing? Does that still make it any better that our morals are based on comfort levels ( oh boy there's a WHOLE other thread right there )?

BTW anyone else should feel free to jump in with opinions here, It's not just about me and Neo's views I know there's a lot of you out there that play video games and I suspect as time goes on this will end up being way more of a hot topic so I'm curious what we all think.

Oh well it's an interesting conversation and one that IS always the better from seeing it from both sides of the fence. Yes it's grey but that really isn't a proper answer is it?

T.

[neolego]

Your point about movies is accurate. We do seem to accept more, but it is more of a passive experience. However, what is funny is that we can all find stuff that we disagree with, but when someone steps on our toes it's a different story. We live in a world of Hypocrites. They say something like: violence in games is the cause of teen murders, but give the highest movie award to a movie where a guy goes around killing old people. Or they say that games with sex and hookers are causing more teen pregnancies but they hand our condoms like tissues and encourage sex at a young age. It is such a hypocrital view point, and where we are failing in in the homes where it starts!

I was just thinking about your Jack Thompson comment. I would like to say that I do not hold to his views at all. I have a daughter and I believe that her moral compass will come from me as a parent and not what she watches/plays. Personally, in life, I try not to curse because I was raised to believe that was wrong. Even though I watch movies or games with cursing and even friends of mine do, that doesn't mean that it has to effect me. It's funny, my Mother-in-law was raised in a home where saying the word Pregnant would be consided wrong. Weird to most of us, but that was how she was raise. To this day (she's close to 50) she still has trouble saying the word. Anyway, I said all of that to say that if you raise your children right, they can play a game like GTA or watch a movie like The Departed and now go out and mimic it....if they even chose to watch it.

And, I guess that's where I'm coming from, my belief on killing or playing certain games stems from my childhood, the way I was raise and what I believe. I don't watch a lot of rated R movies because of sex or violence or content, and I don't go to a lot of restaurants that serve alcohol. It's not because I'm afraid I'll become a murderer or an alcoholic, it's just the choices that I have made in my life. I think that can be applied to our conversation on GTA or any video game. Like I've said from the begining, if you like it, play it, and enjoy it, it's just not for me. There is always going to be someone that has a better view on life. I may say your wrong for watching a rated R movie, but then there will be someone behind me who will say I'm wrong for watching a PG-13. At the end of the day, we are individuals. We have our faults and our triumphs, but this world would get along much better if we just learned that we are all individuals and what's right for me doesn't make it right for the rest of the world. If we applied that to each other, we could learn how to co-exsist and would really find the "peace" in this world that we are always fighting for!

Amen

and Amen

See, I just wish the world was like us Timbo. We can have a decent argument and be on two completely seprate sides and even though you are wrong (j/k) we can still call each other friends. What a concept! neo

[karamazov80]

We're trying to find a copy of Mario Kart Wii while still kicking ass at Smash Bros. Yes, MKW is sold out where I am. Oh well, another shipping should come in soon.

Wow, you should order from Amazon.com. Free shipping, in stock, no tax, no gas wastage. Goodness all around. And that game rocks like a Magikist, so you have to have it.

Regarding the violence in video games debate, I try to refrain from getting involved in this sort of thing, because on issues like these, there are no right answers, yet people feel very strongly about their own beliefs/opinions and will not be swayed by arguments (logical or otherwise), bad feelings and hateful remarks come out of them, and ultimately, these kinds of things are the reasons why "no politics/religion" rules exist on pretty much every forum that I post on--though violence in video games is not necessarily explicitly related to either religion or politics, this argument is tangentially related to both in some way, and seems to always get back to one or both of these issues--as we have seen here.

Having said that, I will briefly chime in so that these two guys won't feel too lonely. Let me avoid the "morality" issues, and discuss the argument by politicians like Joe Lieberman and various "moral authorities" like John Hagee, that violent videogames (along with music, movies, and TV) create violent tendencies in children. This seems to be implicitly based on research by Albert Bandura, who was the god-father of "social learning" theory, and had a famous research experiment where kids watched violent behavior on TV, and then beat up blow up clown dolls. These people concurrently tend to look back on the "glory days" of the 1950s or whatever, as a time when we didn't have school shootings or high suicide rates, and thus place the blame on the downfall of civilized culture following the late-1960s, and all the stuff that came after that.

Well, 1) I don't see the overwhelming evidence suggesting that "social learning theory," or "GTA learning theory" is responsible for violent behavior, and I'm an empiricist. Give me some peer-reviewed academic articles from legitimate journals in psychology, sociology, or. . .social psychology, and I might think otherwise, but even then I doubt it. You can't control for everything in the modern world.

2) I think that the real cause for all of societal "ills" is post-industrialization, which goes hand in hand with the globalization of trade, finance, and. . .ideas! Before this, people (adults and children alike) worked hard all the time, from an early age, had children and families from a very early age, and died at a very early age. People, generally, didn't have the time or access to ideas that allow for things like Columbine. Post-modernism and post-materialism have led to negative externalities like increased extremism in moderate societies, increased occurrences of suicide, school shootings, violence against co-workers, extreme violence against significant others, etc. It is relative deprivation, more free time to think about things, expanded conceptions of reality and what is possible or allowable, etc. This isn't a political issue. It isn't because of videogames or movies, either. It is because of massive societal and economic changes, and other arguments are, to me myopic.

I'm just talking out of my ass at this point. . .anyway, I think Lego is right in that we can all choose to do what we want, and obviously, no one should be criticized for their own behavior and beliefs so long as they aren't trying to shove said beliefs down others' throats. But do violent games cause violent behavior? Again, probably not. If you "believe" that they do, then that's fine, but I believe in facts, and rhetoric/beliefs/morality/political pandering aren't going to prove anything to me.

[The_Donster]

I've got to say this thread has taken a downslide since I was last here I think we can all agree that we're all free to make the choices. Unfortunately folks tend to lash out and blame society as a whole and not look inward for why things aren't right at home. Neo, I applaud that you are trying to be a better example to your child, but there is some hyprocrisy in your views on things. There is no real difference between the violence in COD4 or GTA IV, nor is there for any other game out there. I can't remember who (and I'm too lazy to look for the quote), but there is a reason why there are rating systems on the games (Other than parents not owning up to their responsibilities and letting them know what's suited for their kids ) and why kids shouldn't be playing Halo 3. Both are based off of reality and very violent.

It's like the guy I ran into the other day complaining about the Speed Racer movie, yet he hadn't see it. His comments were regurgitated from the reviews of the movie, not on what he had seen. I hate taking sides, but all you've really done is strengthen TBT's arguments. I think both of you are great guys and honestly hate taking sides on this. So I'll make a request and ask that we move on. As TBT pointed out, this is getting pretty close to the "No politics, religion or sex" rule of the forum and I don't feel that more can be discussed on the subject without that coming to light. Let's get back to talking about the games and leave our politics/religious views at the door when we step inside the forum. Trust me, there was a time in the thread that everyone was talking Halo 3 or COD4 and I was still playing Quake 4 or Hitman

[Fujis]

...and I don't go to a lot of restaurants that serve alcohol.

There are restaurants that don't serve alcohol?!

Back on topic though: I'm finally on the market for a gaming system. I still hold fast that gaming reached perfection with the SNES but I can only play so much Street Fighter II: Alpha (and I play it a lot!).

I wanted to know which system is better: Wii or PS3?

[NINTENDOwii]

Well , one of those six is working up $$$ so that someone can get his Xbox repaired for a SECOND TIME!

Having my xbox broken sucks soo bad. It just makes me think of how much I used it. Well since I don't

have a warrenty no more I think I may try the "towel Trick", hopefull I don't burn down my house.... Wait!

It will be about 4-6 weeks untill I get it back.... what to do...... I think I might try and see if I still have my "sex appeal"

and try to hang out with some friends ( No, not sex yet...... )untill I get it back. If that doesn't work then I'll try

to finish LEGO STARWARS 2 100%. I am already 95.7% done! *WII OUT*

PS- School just let out for me, but I already have a trip to hell planned out...............

[karamazov80]

...and I don't go to a lot of restaurants that serve alcohol.

There are restaurants that don't serve alcohol?!

Back on topic though: I'm finally on the market for a gaming system. I still hold fast that gaming reached perfection with the SNES but I can only play so much Street Fighter II: Alpha (and I play it a lot!).

I wanted to know which system is better: Wii or PS3?

I used to wait tables at Cracker Barrel. They don't serve alcohol. . .which sucks for servers, b/c alcohol, on balance, really tends to loosen pocket-books for tips.

The Wii is better. No one here will dispute that

(if you read back through the thread, there are actually some pretty heated opinions about this--on balance, I think more board members prefer the 360/PS3 to Wii, but I don't)

--edit: actually, the best answer is "none of the above," my favorite system is probably my Nintendo DS--

Edited May 24, 2008 by karamazov80

[The_Donster]

I guess it depends on what you like to play Fujis. PS3/360 seem to be better when it comes to shooter/action games and Wii for some of the roleplay/traditional games. I like the 360, but only you can decide which game console suits your needs. The one thing I will recommend is buying it at Costco. My 360 bonked out on my a while back and I dug out the receipt and exchanged it for a new one. Knock on wood, no issues so far. Hopefully this means they've worked out the kinks on the system.

[TBT!]

I wanted to know which system is better: Wii or PS3?

The short answer is if you want to play regurgitated games (zelda, mario, metriod etc) that have been on every nintendo system since the nes or like the idea of the gimmicky control methods then Wii is your best bet. Graphically it's not up to the standards of the other 'current gen consoles and apart from the few first party titles mentioned above it doesn't have a lot of decent stuff. This is probably best described as the nintendo fanboy or worried mother console

If you like to play Video games that have a probably more mature spin I'd say go PS3/ 360. Technically these systems are Way more advanced that the Wii. Online play really shines on the 360 and I suspect given time the PS3 will have a better etwork too. Disclosure here is that I'm a very happy 360 owner (have been for over a year with no issues or RRoD)

***

Don: ( Don't take this personally I'm just saying I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here)

This a thread about video games and we were discussing the relative view and opinions on how they effect people and how people view the relative levels of violence that are in videogames.

I'm sorry if it was not to your tastes but I don't see the harm in Neo and I talking about something deeper than 'where to get the best deal or beat the level boss on xyz...' I certainly wasn't upset by Neo's opinions and I doubt very much he was by mine. Just plain simple debate, as long as things stay civil it's good to hear someone else's views as it makes you question and understand your own. As Neo said if everyone could debate and listen to other peoples views then work on differences this way the world would be a better place.

Seriously if we can't talk like adults and have grown up conversations here we're just like 99% of the rest of the net.

T.

[karamazov80]

I wanted to know which system is better: Wii or PS3?

The short answer is if you want to play regurgitated games (zelda, mario, metriod etc) that have been on every nintendo system since the nes or like the idea of the gimmicky control methods then Wii is your best bet. Graphically it's not up to the standards of the other 'current gen consoles and apart from the few first party titles mentioned above it doesn't have a lot of decent stuff. This is probably best described as the nintendo fanboy or worried mother console

Note that earlier, TBT was criticizing Neo for knocking GTA without having played it. . .but the impression I get from his posts is that he hasn't played all these Wii games. Am I wrong?

Anyway, I really don't want to rehash the arguments about this from months ago, but I think that TBT is grossly underestimating the innovation disparity. He is right about the first party games and the graphical differences, but at least I personally can only play so many FPS or "over-the-back" shooter games, which seems to be every other game that comes out for the 360, anyway. There are tradeoffs, but to say that the Wii is only for Nintendo fanboys and conservative Christians is selling it short. Many Wii games are genuinely fun, are different from anything else that you've played before, and shouldn't be dismissed as simple re-hashes (is GTA IV really a greater shift from GTA III than Mario Galaxy is from Super Mario 64? I don't think that it is.). He is right though, it all depends on your preferences and tastes. If you love FPS games and really awesome graphics that you want to see on an HDTV, certainly don't do the Wii.

Further, you can't play GTA IV, MGS IV, or Resident Evil 5 on the Wii, and that is an important consideration (games not based on previous franchises, gameplay, or characters ).

Edited May 24, 2008 by karamazov80

[The_Donster]

I'm going to take a wild guess and say that TBT has played the game currently on Wii, just on another platform. Which if I'm not mistaken was the point he made in his comments. Nintendo hasn't brought anything new to game console in a number of years. While I haven't played the Wii (and I have no desire to), there isn't anything that's been released to intice me to either. Does that mean that others can't enjoy it? No, it just means that it doesn't grab me. Same with PS3, sure the blu-ray is nice, but they don't offer enough games to keep me interested. I have a buddy who purchased the console during the big HOOPLA a few years back. This was one of the reasons he switched over to the 360, more variety. I think it's pretty safe to say that Wii has the corner on the market for their consoles because everyone else have evolved into something more.

As I said earlier, I haven't played Wii, but I have played all of the previous consoles and there's nothing new there. That being said, I don't fault those who do like it and enjoy it, it's just not my cup of tea. In regards to my earlier post, I'm not sure what wasn't clear TBT. You might want to go back and re-read my post, it might clear things up for you. But the conversation turned into more of a confrontation, than a discussion on both sides. Both of you felt strongly about your arguments and brought them across nicely. But it was definitely getting into a nice grey area where no one could prove their point any further without breaking the politics and religion rules. Eventually bringing you both to a stalemate. I'm not sure if you noticed but others have tried putting the thread back on course. So maybe it's time to get back to talking about games? I'm not taking this personally and neither should anyone else. Which is why I look to you guys when trying to work my way through a game

[Fujis]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm still on the fence and playing Call of Duty 4 tonight didn't help - damn the controls are complicated!

[Vigilante]

Depends. What kind of games do you like? PS3 has more "hardcore" games and while the Wii has some, it has a wider range of types of games. I don't know much about the PS3 so someone else can make an argument for that, but the Wii is cheap, has a wider range of (cheaper) games, and it seems that you've been playing Nintendo systems a lot so you may feel more at home with the Wii.

It has some fantastic games such as:

Zack and Wiki: The Quest For Barbaros' Treasure

Super Mario Galaxy

Super Smash Bros Brawl

Okami

Wii Fit

Mario Kart Wii

And don't forget that you'll still be able to buy some gaming 'perfection' from the Virtual Console! The controls are a lot simpler as well, and although the Wii doesn't have nearly as good graphics, sales speak for themselves!

I also recommend when buying a Wii that when you want to get a second remote, buy Wii Play. I don't know about the prices in the US but in the UK, games range from £35 - £40 and remotes cost £30, and with Wii Play only costing £35, it's like buying a remote and getting a great collection of minigames for only a fiver!

It should be just as good a deal in the US.

Hope this convinced you to stick with Nintendo!

Vig

Edited May 24, 2008 by Vigilante

[TBT!]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm still on the fence and playing Call of Duty 4 tonight didn't help - damn the controls are complicated!

Remember the first time you used a mouse and how odd that felt... a new console controller is kind of the same thing but with a quicker pickup time.

***

Laughs Heartily at all the overly defensive Nintendo fan boys...

Nintendo are known for reinventing the wheel by recreating the same franchise games over and over on every console and ignoring third party developers (Name 5 3rd party games that are worth playing for the Wii).

I was pointing out that if Fujis enjoyed Nintendo stuff from the earlier consoles it was very much more of the same, i.e. mario, zelda and metroid.

I used the word regurgitated because that's how they feel to me. Personally I don't want to be playing the same characters or even games I was playing 20 years ago ( SNES was great at the time and N64 was the last great console Nintendo made!).

All going to the Wii has done is add unlockable trinkets, gimmicky controls and a new coat of "last gen" paint!

What will I see is that although the Wii is selling insanely fast to 'non gamers' it's a fad that will die down as soon as they get bored of the included sports game and realize the control scheme is gimmick for a lot of games (How many of you use an oldschool Cube controller for MarioKart or Brawl?) The real test of success will be to look at the attach rate of software...

Everyone has their own niche and what they like to play, If Nintendo fans like to stick to the same 5 games then that's fine but don't pretend the Wii is the second coming or something.

*waits for nintendo fanboy bashing to commence....*

T.

[Fo Shizzle]

[

--edit: actually, the best answer is "none of the above," my favorite system is probably my Nintendo DS--

Glad to see the DS being represented finally, I thought I was the only person over 14 that had one!!

Edited May 24, 2008 by Fo Shizzle

[Trekker 42]

What will I see is that although the Wii is selling insanely fast to 'non gamers' it's a fad that will die down as soon as they get bored of the included sports game and realize the control scheme is gimmick for a lot of games (How many of you use an oldschool Cube controller for MarioKart or Brawl?) The real test of success will be to look at the attach rate of software...

T.

I use a cube controller for Brawl but that's because I had Melee and I am use to smashing it up with the cube controller. But I did try the Nunchuck/remote combo once and I liked it. It's just I'm used to the Cube.

Now for Mario kart, that's a different story. The only Kart game I played pre-Wii was the N64 one. The wii remote and wheel work perfectly for Mario kart and I use it joyfully every time I play. It's good stuff.

BTW, I need some recomendations for great Gamecube games. I have Melee, Windwater, Metroid Prime 1, and Pikmin 1 and want to know what else rocks. Which Starfox is better on Gamecube?

[karamazov80]

BTW, I need some recomendations for great Gamecube games. I have Melee, Windwater, Metroid Prime 1, and Pikmin 1 and want to know what else rocks. Which Starfox is better on Gamecube?

I haven't played the shooter Starfox (haven't read good reviews on it), but the RPG-type adventure one is pretty good. Other good games are Resident Evil, Metal Gear Solid: Twin Snakes (these two are essential!), Beyond Good and Evil, Mario Tennis, Mario Kart, Paper Mario (waits to be ridiculed by Timbo ), Time Splitters 2 (a cool, cheap FPS game from the makers of Goldeneye), F-Zero, the X-Men Legends games, the Zelda Collection with the N64 games on it, Mega Man Collection (all the NES Mega Man games), Sonic Collection (all the Genesis Sonic games, I think), the Midway arcade classics (you get Joust, NARC, Mortal Kombat. . .), Soul Calibur 2 (where you can control Link as the special character), and you should probably get one of the Madden games.

[Nestlé]

GameCube games you NEED:

-Skies of Arcadia (If you can find it... Good luck)

-Resident Evil 4

-Soul Calibre 2

-Beyond Good and Evil

-MArio Kart

You'll notice only 1 of the 4 I mentioned are 1st party. Melee and the four games above are the best games made for GameCube.

Sadly, most people have only played half of them.

[Deadpool]

TBT, I just want to know, what games for the Wii have you played? Have you "actually" played Super Smash Bros, Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, LoZ: Twilight Princess, Mario Kart Wii, or any of the other games? I just wanted to know how much you've played, since you have such and intense dislike for them.

I'm guessing you've played quite a bit, since you think it's ridiculous for people to form opinions about games live GTA IV without even playing them.

[TBT!]

TBT, I just want to know, what games for the Wii have you played? Have you "actually" played Super Smash Bros, Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, LoZ: Twilight Princess, Mario Kart Wii, or any of the other games? I just wanted to know how much you've played, since you have such and intense dislike for them.

I'm guessing you've played quite a bit, since you think it's ridiculous for people to form opinions about games live GTA IV without even playing them.

Oh boy... will you people get over it!!! Someone doesn't like the Wii it's not the end of the world...

Fujis asked for people's opinions and I gave mine, I was pretty even handed compared to some of single minded doe-eyed fawning some Wii owners gave! I have the most respect for Karamazov's reply because he at least is admitting that it's has it's failings (As do all of the big 3) and that other consoles do some things better.

Deadpool: to Answer your question I've played a limited amount of Wii at a friends house mostly Sports and Metroid as that's all they had at the time. I'm not sure where you saw my in-depth review of specific Nintendo titles unless saying they are all remakes of previous games that have been around for many console generations and that there is no decent third party title support for the console means I have to play each and everyone of them?

(The trinkets comment was a joke based on reading people's previous comments in this thread about brawl and noting that unlocking is the big gimmick trend with Nintendo.)

Only time will tell if I'm right but I suspect that the Wii will have a VERY low attached rate of software as Nintendo has a small stable of decent (Some think brilliant) first party titles and 99% of the third party stuff is shovelware.

Wii owners please post a list of 10 new (Unreleased) 'MUST HAVE' Wii games that are on the release lists for the console...

One last comment that pretty much sums things up if you ask me... after my previous post a discussion started about great Gamecube titles you want to pickup (Mostly from Wii owners), surely if the Wii was that great/innovative and there was an abundance of great games why would you be looking to the last gen gamecube for your entertainment?

T.

[Trekker 42]

TBT, I just want to know, what games for the Wii have you played? Have you "actually" played Super Smash Bros, Super Mario Galaxy, Metroid Prime 3, LoZ: Twilight Princess, Mario Kart Wii, or any of the other games? I just wanted to know how much you've played, since you have such and intense dislike for them.

I'm guessing you've played quite a bit, since you think it's ridiculous for people to form opinions about games live GTA IV without even playing them.

Oh boy... will you people get over it!!! Someone doesn't like the Wii it's not the end of the world...

Fujis asked for people's opinions and I gave mine, I was pretty even handed compared to some of single minded doe-eyed fawning some Wii owners gave! I have the most respect for Karamazov's reply because he at least is admitting that it's has it's failings (As do all of the big 3) and that other consoles do some things better.

Deadpool: to Answer your question I've played a limited amount of Wii at a friends house mostly Sports and Metroid as that's all they had at the time. I'm not sure where you saw my in-depth review of specific Nintendo titles unless saying they are all remakes of previous games that have been around for many console generations and that there is no decent third party title support for the console means I have to play each and everyone of them?

(The trinkets comment was a joke based on reading people's previous comments in this thread about brawl and noting that unlocking is the big gimmick trend with Nintendo.)

Only time will tell if I'm right but I suspect that the Wii will have a VERY low attached rate of software as Nintendo has a small stable of decent (Some think brilliant) first party titles and 99% of the third party stuff is shovelware.

Wii owners please post a list of 10 new (Unreleased) 'MUST HAVE' Wii games that are on the release lists for the console...

One last comment that pretty much sums things up if you ask me... after my previous post a discussion started about great Gamecube titles you want to pickup (Mostly from Wii owners), surely if the Wii was that great/innovative and there was an abundance of great games why would you be looking to the last gen gamecube for your entertainment?

T.

1. Because I know that the Cube has some great games and I want to know what's the best of the best to play with the backwards compatability.

2. I've beaten everything worth playing on the Wii except Metroid and that's because I've gotten stuck.

3. I need some games on the Gamecube like MP 1 and 2 so I can completely understand the plot of MP 3

4. Pikmin rocks. That is all.

5. I have wanted to play Gamecube games for a while, but decided to get a PS2 because I believed it was superior at the time.

PS: Thanks for the suggestion guys. I have Beyond Good and Evil on the PS2 and I despise football, so no Madden, but otherwise, I'll look into them. How's Luigi's mansion? Any good?

PPS: Off topic a lot, but I just got back from seeing Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull and it f***ing ROCKS!!!!

[karamazov80]

I played Luigi's Mansion when it first came out, and wasn't overly impressed. Mario Sunshine wasn't that great, either (though it had its moments).

[Deadpool]

TBT, it's all in good sport, you know that. I just had to get on your case for getting on Neolego's case for doing what you did too!

[TBT!]

TBT, it's all in good sport, you know that. I just had to get on your case for getting on Neolego's case for doing what you did too!

Even though I didn't...

Besides Neo started it...

And when have I ever been Wrong???

*waits for the floodgates to open*

lol

T.

[handsomedevil]

Thanks for the input guys. I'm still on the fence and playing Call of Duty 4 tonight didn't help - damn the controls are complicated!

I feel the same way about a lot of the new games. I'm 32 and just don't have the desire or drive to learn the controls. I don't usually have the luxury of sitting down for several hours at a time with a game anymore (due to kids, work, girlfriend, etc), so I have been very pleased with my Wii and DS. Most of their games are relatively easy to pick up and play, so I spend more time actually playing the games than learning the controls.