Mighty Marvel musings

[Mirymate]

He's okay. I would have no real objections to him. The problem is for good or for ill Bendis has built the Avengers into one of Marvel's tent pole franchises. So they are going to want a "name" to hand the books off to. So I'm not sure he's "big" enough. Not sure who is right now.

And now, since BHM unvolunteered much to everyone's disappointed...

The X-Men and the Avengers have sparred on several occasions, but two thing are usually at the core of the conflict- Magneto and mind-control. At the earliest days of Marvel, the X-Men didn’t team with anybody, mostly because Charles would make a huge jackass of himself if anyone even holographicly set foot on campus and interrupted his precious training. (Scott took these early lessons to heart I guess since he’s an even bigger dick now.)

The first actual fight I remember came shortly after the Black Panther joined the Avengers, like the next issue. The Avengers, who at that time consisted only of BP, Goliath, Wasp, and Hawkeye, were looking for their missing members, Wanda and Pietro. Seems “Whitey” was showing signs of going all evil again after some Magneto created high jinks. The X-Men, still the original line-up but in their spiffy “graduation” costumes, were of course also tracking Magneto. Through a combination of Marvel misunderstanding and some subtle mind control, the two teams fight to a draw, but of course that doesn’t last long and the good guys win. Aside from being invited to the Pym’s wedding, the two teams don’t speak much in the years that follow. Mostly because the X-Men’s book got sent into reprints.

Their next meeting, Magneto has somehow mastered the trick of controlling peoples’ minds through the iron content in their blood. There’s some fighting, but like most Avenger’s book of the late Thomas era, mostly everyone got captured and waited for Vision to save the day single handed. Beast joins sometime after that, but his X-buddies are rarely mentioned in the resent tense. In fact, I am struggling to remember if Hank ever mentioned his brief return to the X-Men during the Dark Phoenix Saga in the pages of the Avengers of the time. Then as now, the X-Men tended to do their own thing.

The whole X-Men vs Avengers series mentioned boiled down to fallout from Magneto’s first attempt at being a good guy. The international community wanted to put Magnus on trial for his various crimes, the Soviets were particularly ticked off about the whole “sinking a whole sub full of sailors” thing. So the Avengers are charged with arresting Magneto, the Soviet Super Soldiers want to bring him to face his Russian charges, and the X-Men decide that ain’t happenin’. Ultimately Magnus surrenders, fight over.

Next major “event” was a muddled mess of a crossover that marked both team’s 30^th. It features foil embossed covers and everything. Basically it came down to the X-Men, the Avengers, and the Acolytes all fighting over Luna, Crystal and Pietro’s daugther. There were other side plots, but it was such a forgettable mess I don’t even remember what they called it.

And aside from some one on one’s over the years, those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. I do remember a funny sequence in the Kamenski era of Iron Man where Tony is testing his armor in his version of a Danger Room and he flattens an eclectic group of simulated X-Men in combat.

Despite the close ties between the groups, the two teams view each other as a whole with a high degree of mistrust. For their part, the X-Men view the Avengers as too connected to the government to be trusted. That if the laws and circumstances change, the X-Men do not know if the Avengers would come after them just for being mutants. The Avengers, on the other hand, have seen the X-Men embrace a known criminal terrorist twice now on his word he’s reformed. They are pretty sure the X-Men could turn on them if the Avengers as a team were viewed as a threat to mutants. So you have the government stooges calling the fanatics untrustworthy, and vice versa.

So in a way… Bendis isn’t completely wrong. Maybe. The two teams have skirmished in the past, (what two teams of heroes in the Marvel Universe haven’t over the years right?) but as usual when heroic teams clash, the fight is never actually finished. (this is excluding all the various battles where two teams split off into a series of smaller fights and one team wins a greater number of the smaller battles than the other, like the first Avengers/Defenders war.) So if what they are saying is that these to teams are really going to go at it until one side or the other is beaten, then no they have never taken it that far.

Now my Avengers bias is going to show here, but this is one of the few times in X-Men history the two teams were on close to such even footing. Iron Man and Thor out power most of the X-Men’s standard heavy hitters. Even after the proliferation of X-characters in the early 90’s, the Avengers have a deeper bench. Now, just looking at Scott’s squad… Magneto alone is powerful enough to threaten an entire Avenger’s team, Danger negates most of the advantages Tony provides, and a Cyttorak powered Colossus is a frightening thing. Yes, the X-Men have an overwhelming psi advantage, but the Avengers have a lot of experience fighting telepaths. So this has the potential to be interesting… but then so did Fear Itself and the Secret Invasion.

[buttheadsmate]

OK it's taken me some while to type out but here goes with the X-Men v Avengers history lesson......

The X-Men and the Avengers have sparred on several occasions, but two thing are usually at the core of the conflict- Magneto and mind-control. At the earliest days of Marvel, the X-Men didnt team with anybody, mostly because Charles would make a huge jackass of himself if anyone even holographicly set foot on campus and interrupted his precious training. (Scott took these early lessons to heart I guess since hes an even bigger dick now.)

The first actual fight I remember came shortly after the Black Panther joined the Avengers, like the next issue. The Avengers, who at that time consisted only of BP, Goliath, Wasp, and Hawkeye, were looking for their missing members, Wanda and Pietro. Seems Whitey was showing signs of going all evil again after some Magneto created high jinks. The X-Men, still the original line-up but in their spiffy graduation costumes, were of course also tracking Magneto. Through a combination of Marvel misunderstanding and some subtle mind control, the two teams fight to a draw, but of course that doesnt last long and the good guys win. Aside from being invited to the Pyms wedding, the two teams dont speak much in the years that follow. Mostly because the X-Mens book got sent into reprints.

Their next meeting, Magneto has somehow mastered the trick of controlling peoples minds through the iron content in their blood. Theres some fighting, but like most Avengers book of the late Thomas era, mostly everyone got captured and waited for Vision to save the day single handed. Beast joins sometime after that, but his X-buddies are rarely mentioned in the resent tense. In fact, I am struggling to remember if Hank ever mentioned his brief return to the X-Men during the Dark Phoenix Saga in the pages of the Avengers of the time. Then as now, the X-Men tended to do their own thing.

The whole X-Men vs Avengers series mentioned boiled down to fallout from Magnetos first attempt at being a good guy. The international community wanted to put Magnus on trial for his various crimes, the Soviets were particularly ticked off about the whole sinking a whole sub full of sailors thing. So the Avengers are charged with arresting Magneto, the Soviet Super Soldiers want to bring him to face his Russian charges, and the X-Men decide that aint happenin. Ultimately Magnus surrenders, fight over.

Next major event was a muddled mess of a crossover that marked both teams 30^th. It features foil embossed covers and everything. Basically it came down to the X-Men, the Avengers, and the Acolytes all fighting over Luna, Crystal and Pietros daugther. There were other side plots, but it was such a forgettable mess I dont even remember what they called it.

And aside from some one on ones over the years, those are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head. I do remember a funny sequence in the Kamenski era of Iron Man where Tony is testing his armor in his version of a Danger Room and he flattens an eclectic group of simulated X-Men in combat.

Despite the close ties between the groups, the two teams view each other as a whole with a high degree of mistrust. For their part, the X-Men view the Avengers as too connected to the government to be trusted. That if the laws and circumstances change, the X-Men do not know if the Avengers would come after them just for being mutants. The Avengers, on the other hand, have seen the X-Men embrace a known criminal terrorist twice now on his word hes reformed. They are pretty sure the X-Men could turn on them if the Avengers as a team were viewed as a threat to mutants. So you have the government stooges calling the fanatics untrustworthy, and vice versa.

So in a way… Bendis isnt completely wrong. Maybe. The two teams have skirmished in the past, (what two teams of heroes in the Marvel Universe havent over the years right?) but as usual when heroic teams clash, the fight is never actually finished. (this is excluding all the various battles where two teams split off into a series of smaller fights and one team wins a greater number of the smaller battles than the other, like the first Avengers/Defenders war.) So if what they are saying is that these to teams are really going to go at it until one side or the other is beaten, then no they have never taken it that far.

Now my Avengers bias is going to show here, but this is one of the few times in X-Men history the two teams were on close to such even footing. Iron Man and Thor out power most of the X-Mens standard heavy hitters. Even after the proliferation of X-characters in the early 90s, the Avengers have a deeper bench. Now, just looking at Scotts squad… Magneto alone is powerful enough to threaten an entire Avengers team, Danger negates most of the advantages Tony provides, and a Cyttorak powered Colossus is a frightening thing. Yes, the X-Men have an overwhelming psi advantage, but the Avengers have a lot of experience fighting telepaths. So this has the potential to be interesting… but then so did Fear Itself and the Secret Invasion.

Phew that sure took some time to do.

EDIT: Dang Miry beat me to it

Edited December 10, 2011 by buttheadsmate

[BannersID]

I'm not current with up and coming talent. But I have always wanted to see what Peter David could do with the Avengers. His run on the Hulk is on of my all time favorite comic runs. I also can't recall Peter working on a team book before.

X-Factor.

And it was/is gloriously quirky. PAD is best when he can write off-beat characters. That said, I'd love to see him take a stab at one of the A-teams. Maybe the Academy book.

I forgot about His working on X-factor, That is good stuff,. Now I want a PAD Avengers book even more, lol

[Nessex]

I'm not current with up and coming talent. But I have always wanted to see what Peter David could do with the Avengers. His run on the Hulk is on of my all time favorite comic runs. I also can't recall Peter working on a team book before.

X-Factor.

And it was/is gloriously quirky. PAD is best when he can write off-beat characters. That said, I'd love to see him take a stab at one of the A-teams. Maybe the Academy book.

I forgot about His working on X-factor, That is good stuff,. Now I want a PAD Avengers book even more, lol

I've just started reading his 90's run on X-Factor this week. It's good fun! Hopefully he could bring some of that ensemble fun to Avengers.

[hellpop]

PAD's a guy- James Robinson is another- that's better in small doses, I think. There's a fine line between style and formula, and PAD's work too often falls on the wrong side for me. I like his work well enough, but eventually he wears me out. He'd be an interesting fit on the Avengers, though. Oddly, despite all his success, he's never really gotten a shot at a big-time title (the Hulk has always been a middling seller, and PAD pretty much single-handedly raised the book's profile). Don't bet on it, though. It's gonna be Fracton. He's the guy they're grooming.

[Mirymate]

PAD's Aquaman run was the only time I ever found the character interesting on his own in my life. And considering the rudderless ship they book became after an editorial dispute force David off the title, I think DC regretted the decision to let him go not long the fact either. Sometimes, a writer/character combinaion just clicks. But there have been other books with PAD on them that were just flat. Christopher Priest I loved writing Black Panther... and that was about it. Claremont and Byrne re-teamed on the JLA... and it was awful. Kurt Busiek's Avengers ranks among my favorite runs by any writer every... his JLA run was just meh. And the less said about the writing pendelum that is John Byrne the better. (but at least he's rarely mediocre.)

Fraction... It's hard to say about a Marvel write now. Most of the stories he's written that I've disliked have had the stink of editorial mandate and/or crossover about them. Aside from Bendis, and Brubaker once he really got going, I've wondered for years how much of what's going on in the X-Men or Avengers branch books can be atributed to an individual writer or to the chosen direction by someone above them in the pecking order. So would I still dislike Fraction if he weren't following Bendis's lead? I don't know.

[hellpop]

Funny, but PAD's Aquaman is possibly my least favorite version of the character. And I've read a lot of Aquaman, including the Silver Age stuff reprinted in the Archives in which Aquaman was literally incapable of beating up gangsters unless he had fish to help him out. But I really like the later Silver Age (with Cardy art) and the Bronze Age stuff (with Aparo art). Man, those were comics.

PAD's Aquaman, on the other hand, didn't feel like Aquaman to me, but more an attempt to turn him into someone he's not. The Sub-Mariner, basically. But I agree that it did have a direction, and made the character much more relevant to the general reading audience then any of the later attempts at Aquaman have done. Until Johns, of course. Because Johns can do no wrong!

I don't think that Francton should be the guy, just that he will be the guy. And I'm not sure what to make of him. I loved his work on Iron Fist (with Brubaker), but I've not read anything else by him since that I've found remotely as good. A lot of people seemed to like the Order, but I thought it was just terrible. Fear Itself seems to have left a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths, but Marvel never seems to care much about that.

[youbastards]

I've just started reading his 90's run on X-Factor this week. It's good fun! Hopefully he could bring some of that ensemble fun to Avengers.

Best issue of his X-Factor run:

To this day, because of PAD's writing, Strong Guy is one of my all-time favorite Marvel characters.

[Mirymate]

We'll agree to disagree on PAD and Aquaman, HP.

Until Johns, of course. Because Johns can do no wrong!

Avengers v3 #57-76.

A mediocre run with better fill-in issues than the three major arcs. Johns himself said he was disappointed in for it came out. His departure, which sources differ whether Johns left on his own or was let go do to slumping sales, led to the brilliant decision to hire Chuck Austen to revitalize the flagging title. Yeah, you heard me. Marvel brought over Johns flush from his JSA success and it sounded like a no-brainer easy win. And it didn't work. He shuffled off early back to DC, both sides feeling he did not deliver the goods on the Avengers. Austen steps in and instead of helping, he makes it worse in every conceivable way. So the PTB decide to give Bendis his biggest 616 break and gave him carte blank on all things Avenger.

So... if Johns' run on the Avengers had gone over as well as his DC work there would have been no Dissassembled.

Not puting Geoff Johns down in any real way, his body of work speaks for itself.

[Turtle]

I've just started reading his 90's run on X-Factor this week. It's good fun! Hopefully he could bring some of that ensemble fun to Avengers.

Best issue of his X-Factor run:

[edited for space]

To this day, because of PAD's writing, Strong Guy is one of my all-time favorite Marvel characters.

That is a GREAT issue. To this day, whenever I'm stuck in line at the grocery store, waiting in traffic, or frustrated that "no pickle, no tomato" is a difficult request... I think of poor Pietro and his PMS. As much as I love PAD and how much I adore his work on X-Factor, I don't know that he'd be my pick for Avengers. I just don't know that it would click.

[hellpop]

We'll agree to disagree on PAD and Aquaman, HP.

Until Johns, of course. Because Johns can do no wrong!

Avengers v3 #57-76.

A mediocre run with better fill-in issues than the three major arcs. Johns himself said he was disappointed in for it came out. His departure, which sources differ whether Johns left on his own or was let go do to slumping sales, led to the brilliant decision to hire Chuck Austen to revitalize the flagging title. Yeah, you heard me. Marvel brought over Johns flush from his JSA success and it sounded like a no-brainer easy win. And it didn't work. He shuffled off early back to DC, both sides feeling he did not deliver the goods on the Avengers. Austen steps in and instead of helping, he makes it worse in every conceivable way. So the PTB decide to give Bendis his biggest 616 break and gave him carte blank on all things Avenger.

So... if Johns' run on the Avengers had gone over as well as his DC work there would have been no Dissassembled.

Not puting Geoff Johns down in any real way, his body of work speaks for itself.

You know that I was kidding about Johns, right? Not that I don't like the guy, but he's got his flaws on his resume like anyone else, and his Avengers run is one of them. He's a much better fit at DC then Marvel.

Final word about PAD and Aquaman... I should say that I gave up the book shortly into his run, when I went into the "I can't take Peter David's writing anymore" meltdown I hinted at above. So I can't really judge it objectively, except to say that the Aquaman he seemed to be writing from Time and Tide on wasn't really the Aquaman I wanted to read.

Back to the Avengers: one guy I think would be an interesting choice would be Joe Casey, who wrote in his Earth's Mightiest Heroes book about being an Avengers fanboy. I'd like to see a guy with his unique style and sense of Avengers history take on the big book.

[Mirymate]

That is a GREAT issue. To this day, whenever I'm stuck in line at the grocery store, waiting in traffic, or frustrated that "no pickle, no tomato" is a difficult request... I think of poor Pietro and his PMS.

Oh agreed. The single best explination of why Pietro was written as such a jerk more often than not over the years.

I'd second you nomination of Casey as regular series scribe, HP. Liked both EMH and it's sequel.

[Mirymate]

I am going to propose yet another Retcon to Iron Man's origin.

Since 1963 there have been many tweaks and outright rewrites to Tony's early life. It was communist Vet Cong, then local terrorists, from jungles to desserts, to the whole thing being manipulated by various shadowy foes. First Tony's Parents died in an auto accident, now they were murdered by Roxxon. (I miss Roxxon as the go to evil corporation BTW) But as Marvel's sliding timeline gets further and further away from it's Cold War roots, the idea that Tony is the son of WWII weapons maker Howard Stark becomes less and less plausible. But it has a simple solution= add another generation of Starks.

Tony's full name is Anthony Edward Stark, partially named after his father Howard Anthony Stark. I propose Marvel make Howard A. Stark Tony's grandfather, and create a character Edward Howard Stark. Edward suffered from being the extremely brilliant son of a genius. No matter what he accomplished, he never felt he could escape his father's long shadow, and the press calling him "Little Howard" all his life didn't help. While not being the inventor Howard was, Edward was a better businessman and made a lot on money. But he was also an alcoholic, and somewhat jealous of his son, Tony, when the boy showed flashed of his grandfather's brilliance at an early age. Combined with Tony's propensity to gad about like Ed's own layabout younger brother lead to strained relations between the two all of Tony's life. Both Howard and Edward happened to be married to women named Maria, unusual but not unheard of.

And thus a continuity problem is solved.

[boyd]

Whoo-hoo! Marvel reboot in October! New costumes for everyone!

[youbastards]

LOL, I like how they incorrectly identified Nick Fury in that picture....or did they??? Isn't that his son that just happens to look just like SLJ Fury?

Edited July 3, 2012 by youbastards

[boyd]

Yup, that's Nick Fury Jr. Or Sam Fury, if you prefer.

Edited July 3, 2012 by boyd

[TM2 Dinobot]

They're not doing a 52 style reboot, are they? That's... terrible. I see Jean is back from the dead. This time she stayed dead all of what? 5 years? I like Sue's costume.

[Mirymate]

It's not a reboot, just another relaunch/reshuffle. Probably trying to capitalize on movie momentum. Trying, once again, to lure in new readers. But then, they haven't made any real push to get monthlies out of the comics shops and back onto newsstands/comics racks, (ah... memories of riding my bike down to the 7/11 to spin the old comics rack an look for anything new, good times) so I'm not sure what they think this is going to accomplish. No feeder market = no few readers, few new readers means you're stuck trying to keep old farts like me happy, cause that's mostly what you've got left, rather than moving the stories forward significantly. And you can't make old farts like me consistently happy, because none of us can all agree on what "should" be happening in the book, yet we are all convinced we know best and the rest are just wrong headed fanboys. If they were really serious about getting new readers, they'd be looking at ways get monthly comics places other than Barnes and Noble and back into convenience stores, grocery stores, college stores, and anywhere else they can get them; and lower prices rather than just slapping new number ones on the covers every 4 years.

Jean's been mostly dead since Morrison killed her, which is, what? Almost a decade ago? Time flies and all. She's been dead longer this time than she was the first time.

I see Cable is going to lose his good eye, Real Nick is going to be dead again soon (4th time now), Thor will need his cape back, and Spidey now sports the current cartoon version of his costume (at least it's not the movie version). HATE that Cap's going with an even more Ultimate than Ultimate costume, and the less said about whatever they've done to Cyc the better.

[Turtle]

WTF. Bendis' X-Men run apparently has the 5 original X-Men reappearing in the present, explaining classic looking Marvel Girl. Is all of this to replace existing titles, or will it run along side them?

[hellpop]

Quesada cannot draw a Raccoon to save his life.

Just the latest stunt from a company that's entirely creatively bankrupt. These will sell great for 4-6 months, then drop off when the fill-in artists start, then be replaced in two years by the next round of #1s. The only real question is whether they will squeeze in some "original numbering" if any of the titles is approaching an anniversary.

[Nessex]

Is Thor wielding swords now? Or is Deadpool hiding behind him?

[battlecat]

You guys are burying the lead, supposedly that Bendis guy you all hate is off Avengers -- and Hickman, probably the best writer at Marvel these days, is taking over the book.

[hellpop]

He announced that he was leaving Avengers a while ago, they just hadn't announced what he's ruining doing next.

[battlecat]

I meant Hickman was the news. Although I think Bendis had just said he was wrapping things up before, not that he'd be gone this soon. Whatever, after all the Bendis Avengers hating on here I just thought there'd be more excitement about that than annoyance at Marvel resetting their universe a bit, like they do pretty much every year after the summer event. Hickman's FF run was so good.

[Twisted Two-Face]

Disappointing. Costumes look awful, especially Scott and Steve. Not thrilled with the idea either; The X-men thing seems like a deus ex machina, and the Red Skull thing is just getting ridiculous.

At least Jean is finally back, though i'm not sure i like the premise or "innocence."