Mighty Marvel musings

[Mirymate]

Had a theory I'd like to share. There are plenty of knowledgeable folks here so I thought I'd see if I was completely off base story logic wise or not.

The recently departed Sentry, at first a bad joke played on Wizard, then psychotic Superman clone turned out to be a reality warper on the level of the Molecule Man. Like Owen Reese's early appearances, Sentry's power limits were entirely self implemented. Reynolds had at least three different origin variations and several different reasons given for the world forgetting he existed. This makes since if he has vast reality warping powers and is altering his own history subconsciously. And Bob displayed emotionally stinted development in both his identities, like he was constantly playing a role without depth.

All of this started sounding vaguely familiar to me.

So, I think the Sentry is someone we know. Someone capable of manipulating matter, energy, time, and space on a galactic scale. Someone fascinated with Earth, and particularly Earth's superheroes. And who despite phenomenal cosmic power, is emotionally immature and struggles with what he really wants, and is prone to incredibly violent and destructive tantrums.

In short, I think Robert Reynolds is really the Beyonder. I believe that like Reese, the Beyonder's consciousness separated itself from Kosmos, leaving the later the insane, near comatose "Maker", and traveled back to before the coming of the Fantastic Four. There with no resistance, he achieved his Secret Wars II plan of becoming a mortal, yet retaining his powers. But the process left the infant without conscious memory of it's prior existence, but knowing enough to bury it's power until such time he was old enough to control it. So infant is a foundling, taken to an orphanage and raised as Robert Reynolds, a troubled young man who grew up feeling like there was something he'd lost and turned to the adrenaline rush of crime and the high of drugs to fill dull that desire. He breaks into the lab and drinks the golden formula or whatever they called it, which was really just a powerful enough chemical that should killed Bob. But instead Bob's buried powers flair back into being to save his life. So as the Sentry, Bob lives out his Beyonder born dream of interacting with the heroes who fascinated him so, but the Void was all that pent up frustration of being continually thwarted by his lessers.

This idea works even if you subscribe to the recent Bendis retcon of the Beyonder being a near omnipotent Inhuman. Instead of self exiling at his kings' command, the Beyonder goes ahead with his SW II plan as described above.

So what do you guys think? Workable story idea?

[MINI_MYTE]

Your theory makes sense to me. I wonder if Marvel knows you know of their secret plans for Sentry / Beyonder.

[AdyCarter]

The theory holds sound. The only possible issue with it is the X-Men story post Siege that had the Sentry living in Cyclops' head.

I honestly don't think Marvel knew how to handle the Sentry (his power level is so far out of whack with everyone else, and his only similarly powered villain is arguably himself). What didn't help was how he was constantly bouncing around between events which lead to "reveals" about him either been instantly retconned or almost happening out of order (especially with his wife, she was dead, she wasn't, she was a Skrull, then she wasn't, Bullseye killed her, she was then fine again, then she wasnt because Bullseye had killed her). They almost had to keep gimping him and making him insane/scared to use his powers otherwise he could just negate any plot by throwing people into space etc.

Considering the weirdness of Cloc at the funeral and the whole "The Sentrys' Watchtower is now off limits to everyone" that Cloc was spouting I get the impression we may get a reappearance of him at some point, hopefully with a scaled down power set and some workable achillies heel, heck I'd be all for the following idea (I dont know if I read this somewhere or just made it up):

Work him into the Weapon program as like Weapon 4.5 or something, have him be some kind of attempt at a psychic Weapon (his powers and abilities transpire to have been mainly hallucanegenic and/or crossed with Fantomexs (another Weapons) misdirection) which could also feed into his randomness of making the world forget him and the Void could have been either part of his fractured psyche or seperate entity as part of the weapon project (Much like the Cuckoos are almost a gestalt entity). Alternatively play him off as almost a natural balancing counterpart of Wanda as another Chaos magic user and the two are meant to keep each other in check somehow, the lack of Wanda led to him going a little nuts...

[Turtle]

I've always thought Sentry was a bit of shitty, lazily crafted character. I think the Beyonder idea works, makes him cooler, and allows for him to come back in a non-sucky way. I'd actually kind of like it if Sentry were resurrected with full knowledge of his nature, reconciles his Void and Sentry personas into one well-rounded character. With his new knowledge of himself and his greater understanding of humanity, Sentry/Beyonder could realize his place is not with Earth's heroes. Then he and his powers can fly into space, and he can kind of take on some sort of Captain Marvel Protector of the Universe type role. I don't particularly like Sentry on Earth- as you say, he's just way too cosmically powerful, but I think he could work really, really well in space teaming up with/facing off against characters like Silver Surfer, Nova, Guardians of the Galaxy, the Annihilators, Beta Ray Bill, Thanos, and Galactus. If he's protecting the universe, he'll be focused on the greater good, so normal hero/villain allegiances won't matter. I like Sentry as Beyonder.

That said, it also works to have him as Wanda's balance, and in her absence, he created dual personas for himself. Hell, that could still work even if Beyonder is some super Inhuman mutant- the M Day event would have wrought havok on all mutants, but especially one who is also independently cosmically powerful. Instead of taking his powers, it just knocked him off balance.

[groundhog7s]

You know, I've gone through that same exact thought process before myself except you have to substitute the words 'Impossible Man' where you've got 'Beyonder'. Otherwise, I agree it's a great idea.

[Mirymate]

Part of my reasoning stems from a dislike of having yet another being of limitless power, but an unstable ind running loose in the 616. The Molecule Man is an extremely power being. He wished away Thor's hammer once. Let e say that again, Owen Reese unmade Thor's hammer and transformed him into Don Blake with a wave of his hand. And yet the Sentry overpowered Reese. Are was an immortal Olympian. As in one of their long standing powers is that they are unkillable on outside of their home dimensions. (unlike Asguardians, who are simply long lived, augmented by enchanted apples) When Zesus stripped Hercules of his godhood way back in the 90's, what he took was his immortality. Which, as it as explained to me by Busiek and Beveroot, meant in simplest terms that if the Herc took the Mansion Siege beating without his immortality he would have died no question. And yet despite Ares still possessing his full godly might, Sentry killed him effortlessly. To do these two things, you would have to be looking at Beyonder level abilities anyway. And after that realization, the other similarities started to fall into place.

On Wanda... I didn't like her powers being defined as reality warping back when Byrne first proposed the idea. I was much more comfortable with the "probability manipulation augmented by magic" explanation that had been generally excepted for years prior and post. Even Busiek's very well thought out explanation of "Chaos Magic" was a bit too much for me. (Oh and Strange is either an idiot or a worse Sorcerer Supreme than we thought. He certainly had heard of Chaos or ancient Cthonic Magic before, which is what Busiek said Wanda could manipulate, or at the very least he should have.) The last time her powers were shown to be this strong, she was being empowered by outside forces for their own ends (in that case, Immortus) In my own preferred solution, this will prove be the case again, with someone augmenting, corrupting, and manipulating Wanda into the universal threat she currently represents. In reality that's true, and his name is Bendis, but I'm hoping that proves to be the in story case as well.

[buttheadsmate]

My knowledge of the Marvel Universe is adequate although occasionally I find myself in the dark & that was the situation I found myself in when I first came across The Sentry in the Raft in an Avengers comic a few years back . He was never going anywhere was he ?All that power ....no class I can't comment on your theory but all I can say is that I read the Infinity Gauntlet for the first time around about the time we got the Minimate set . I can comment upon that....what a load of twaddle,it may have been fresh in 1991 but in one fell swoop every omnipotent character in the entire (Marvel)universe ended up as fodder . It happens time & time again & goes with the territory I guess but I'd hate(for example)to be the King(ruler)of Asgard . One minute you're immortal & capable of just about anything & then your dead for a few issues ....& then your alive again ,in the meantime your son Thor has been ruler,

your other son

Balder has been ruler & your other son .....er ...daughter, Loki has had the time of his life

not least arranging that Odin's father Bor died ...lived....& then got killed by his grandson Thor

. Again it was twaddle but it was enjoyable twaddle .

-omnipotentheadsmate (dec.)

[Mirymate]

At the time, the Infinity Gauntlet had the advantage of being a unique story for the time. There had been a lot of beings, the Beyonder included, that had played at being omnipotent and not really done much with it. They'd rattle the saber, crackle maniacally and then blow it and get beat. By the first couple of issues, this was different, death and destruction on a level not attempted in a mainstream book. Sure, in fell apart by the books end, but I think Starlin wrote himself into a corner by making Thanos so powerful and competent in the first and second act that the third was destined to be a contrived let down if good was to win the day. Of course, these days, in the post Authority, post Ultimates era, such levels of death and destruction are fairly common. That, IMO, is not necessarily a good thing.

[Mirymate]

Someone mentioned Fear Itself in another thread. Man what a let down. Although I suppose as a guy who stuck with Smallville for 10 seasons I should be thankful that Fraction is keeping the traditions of that show alive. So far it's sticking to the exact same pattern. Really strong beginning, strong act one close, and then a lot of treading water and building dread, though little is actually revealed, or even happens. And then you realize there's only one episode left in the season to resolve this and you hope against hope it'll be different this year, but in the end you know it'll be the first 20 minutes for last minute exposition, planning, and hand ringing, 5 minutes of actual fighting, and the last 15 for bemoaning the consequences of said all to brief fighting, complete with twist ending. And when it's done, you'll feel both cheated and oddly compelled to see how the twist is resolved next season. I think that pretty well sums up Fear Itself in a nutshell.

[storm 1:08]

Don't forget that last 15 minutes drags on with special episodes! 7.1, 7.2, and 7.3. I'd prefer it be Fear Itself Aftermath: Iron Man, Captain America, and Thor, but hey, if it sells more copies, kudos to the marketing dude.

But sorry, I wasn't impressed even with "act 1". Hopefully the final battle with the Mighty (is that their team name?) appearing will be fun. So far, Fear Itself has been kind of meh to me.

[battlecat]

I liked most of issue 5 I think it was? The bit with the Thor fight. Most of it's been really boring, and good god the tie-in issues. Almost can't blame Spidey for giving up and going home, no matter how insanely out of character it was. Ironically I'm still enjoying Fraction's Iron Man series though, even as it crosses over.

[storm 1:08]

So Miry, have you read Avenger's Children's Crusade #7 yet? I was wondering if that explanation of Wanda and her reality-altering powers fit Miry-pedia nicely. Or rewrote it. Anyway, I loved the entire series. Though that page of Wanda's explanation took a few reads to swallow.

[Mirymate]

I have not, yet. But I don't mind being spoiled.

[storm 1:08]

I have not, yet. But I don't mind being spoiled.

Well, I'm going off the top of my head so my exact details might be off. Spoilers on. And if anyone else read it, please correct me if I'm wrong.

After the twins died, she went to Doom to help resurrect them since he is superior to her in the arts of magics and won't hesitate going into the dark arts. Doing so, they tapped into some nexus power or whatever and the side-effect was that it gave her the reality-altering powers we all know now. Another side-effect was that it started possessing her and that's how we got her going crazy. They tried tapping into it again in the present timeline to reverse M-day. Results weren't pretty, though interestingly exciting. I'll leave it at that until you read the issue.

I'm just wondering, how long has she been crazy? Since the one page and, I think, 4 panels of explanation made it seem like it went quick from the twins to disassembled meltdown.

[Mirymate]

Aaahhh! Okay so...

Wanda was established as a Nexus being a long time ago. Herself, and Mantis are two, Rick Jones and maybe Doom himself could be considered another. The short version is they are people of cosmic significance that are destined to take actions that will affect the universe at large. There's also some kind of cosmic energy normally subtly involved (Byrne, creator of the idea, was never clear.) that could be manipulated if you understood how it all worked. Immortus had been manipulating Wanda since the Celestial Madonna affair, slowly feeding her more and more Nexus energy until she was warping reality, while at the same time manipulating events in her life to give her a mental breakdown and thus make her pliable enough to be his mindless servant. His intent was to use her to free himself of his servitude to the Time Keepers. Of course the Avenger's foiled this plot, but Wanda temporarily lost her powers completely again for the first time in years. (Wanda losing her powers were a semi-regular occurrence in her early appearances) So, by tyeing her recent levels of power to the idea of Nexus energies, that lines up perfectly with established continuity, as does increased power leading to mental instability. Very nicely played.

As to how long she's been insane... heh, I'd guess somewhere around the start of Chuck Austen's run. I mean nobody acted like themselves from #77 thru #85, might as well try to explain it all away. They've blamed Jan's odd behavior on her experimenting with the regular use of growth powers, known to cause mental instability. Now if they can just explain Hawkeye's, we'll be making some real headway.

[storm 1:08]

Continuity cause head hurt... But your explanation makes it seem like this was the plan all along, huh? Man I love this book. Better than most books I pick up, including the select DC #1s I've read.

And can't everyone else's odd behavior be explained by Scarlet Witch, or is that the cheap deus ex machina?

[Mirymate]

I doubt it was always the plan. There's no evidence that Byrne intended to depower Wanda, that appears to have been Roy Thomas', the guy who was hired to clean up after Byrne, idea. Sight unseen, my best guess is we have a savey writer who looked into a way to restore Wanda without having the rewrite history. But Bendis is the 800 lbs gorrila at Marvel, has been for a while now. He is as likely as not to leave her crazy and overpowered if it suits him. In that way, he and Byrne are alike- they both think they know best how these characters should be presented, and have no problem retconning things to fit their vision. In the case of both men, sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. In fact I've reffered to Bendis before as John Byrne with half the talent. Some people take that as a knock, but I mean I've never seen Bendis draw. And they've both written things I've really enjoyed, and things I've wondered who approved this for print.

Anyway I need to see the issue to see what Wanda was wearing when she approached Doom, to better place this in continuity.

Scarlet Witch has been the dues ex machina of the Avengers since she joined. Could her growing instability have affected everyone during the mercifully brief Austen era? Sure, I'll buy that. It would explain things like Clint declaring he's been in love with Jan since they met, despite his being in a relatinship with 'Tasha at the time they met, and Clint's longstanding unrequieted crushed on Wanda. It would explain asking Captain Britan to move to New York, and inspite of learning she can never reveal who she is to her kids, moving her kids into the mansion with her. Maybe she could have affected Morgan La Fey, since her plot to destroy/take over britan makes no sense whatsoever, much like the Austen scribed Azeal plot in X-Men. Maybe Wanda's true show of reality warping power was getting a no talent hack like Chuck Austen all those choice writing jobs in the first place. (otherwise I'll stick with my own theory- Austen must have had naked pictures serveral Marvel and DC editors.)

[storm 1:08]

Anyway I need to see the issue to see what Wanda was wearing when she approached Doom, to better place this in continuity.

I'll save you the trouble. She was drawn in the exact same costume that she is currently wearing in the flashback sequences. I don't know if that helps or just the artist just drawing her that way. Or Wanda just doesn't like change.

http://marvel.com/images/gallery/issue/31140/images_from_avengers_the_childrens_crusade_2010_4/image/830453

Also, if you can explain how this fits in current continuity with Iron Man wearing his Extremis armor and Steve Rogers in his Captain America uniform, that would be grrrrrreeeeaaattt! All I know is this seems to take place before or around the latest Avengers #1 as Wonder Man is alongside the Avengers and doesn't seem bitter yet. And Cyclops is being a big jerk too.

[Mirymate]

Well that's her classic costume. Fortunatly, it means she most likely made the deal with Doom at some point in the Roy Thomas era of the West Coast Avengers. She stopped wearing it for Force Works, had a different costume when she returned for the Crossing era, and in v3, she wore a wide variety of costumes and ended up going utterly mad.

But then, the writing says this should have happened just before Seige (Wonderman being bitter immediately after) but there's mention of Dark Reign and Iron Man has the wrong armor. Truth is, and I hate to say it, I think Cheung is just drwaing these folks in the costumes he wants to put them in rather than bothering makeing everyone's look current. And let's face it, with Wanda these days the inconsistancies could be part of the story on purpose.

[AdyCarter]

I beleive Marvel has shifted the continuity of the Childrens Crusade several times due to its delays, the most recent issue of X-Factor has a repowered Rictor with a footnote (shock horror) referrencing Childrens Crusade, I beleive its been said someplace that Shcism, Fear Itself and Childrens Crusade all tie in at their conclusions and there is a reason they all end nowish.

I long since gave up on trying to tie Marvel to any form of contunity more specific than "It happened this decade", thats the problem with Decompression and monthly story telling, the events of Childrens Crusade despite taking a year+ to come out could conceivably all have taken place in an afternoon. Where as titles such as the latest NA took place before, during and after Fear Itself

[Mirymate]

What? A...a... footnote?!?!? In a Marvel book?!? Written in the last decade???!? You know not!!

Oh, right. X-Factor, PAD, he's old. We'll have to chalk that up to his age and lack of hipness.

[Mirymate]

The's a lot not to love about the X-books these days. But I think my biggest gripe comes from before even M-Day. I, for one, am digusted with the retcons that have been used to make Professor X a morally amibivelant manipulator who is no longer that different from his rival Magneto. Now both sides of their argument are headed by immoral men willing to make any sacrifice, cross any line for thier cause. It started with Danger, and the idea that Charles wilingly enslaved a sentient being for years to train his teams. In fact, Cyclops cuts all ties with him at the time for it. Later writers softened that blow, by saying Charles was searching for a way to free Danger the entire time, but could not. Still makes him pretty heartless to keep useing "her" though. Then they saddle him with having sacrificed an entire team and then hiding their existence until two of them turn up alive. That's a level Magneto never sank to, sure he's killed directly and indirectly but he's never shyed away from admitting it. Now I like Darwin, and I enjoyed Vulcan's part in the War of Kings and such. But I am not sure that enjoyment justifies the damage their existence does to Xavier's character. Is it any wonder then that Cyclops is now willing to make any sacrifice, cross any line, do things that just a few months ago (Marvel time) he himself found morally dispicable enough to take action against, all in the name of his cause?

[Jatta Pake]

I'd really like M-Day to be reversed. Or ended or what not.

New characters always had the option of being a mutant but now Marvel seems to go to great lengths to assign non-mutant origins to new characters. I also think "magic" has been overused in 616.

It would be cool if Marvel had a W-Day. To save the universe unbalanced by Sentry/Beyonder, Wanda utters the words, "No more magic." Wanda vanishes, Asgard is sealed off from Earth trapping Thor on earth without his hammer, Pym saves Dr. Strange by stuffing him in his pocket, Mephistos curse on Spidey and MJ is lifted, adolescents start turning into mutants again, and Doom is shunted off to a fantasy bubble universe with Morgan Le Fey where they are both stripped of magic and technology. Cho finds a rip in reality (caused by the mutant preserving bubble from M-Day) and pulls Hercules through it preserving his godly powers but leaving him faced with the loss of Olympus. The loss of magic also eliminates all links to other realities. Whoever is on 616 on W-Day is stuck there. Moonstar and Magik also find the Cho rip and make it through along with Hela, and end up preserving a shattered and barren Limbo. Hela and Moonstar also find their magics distorted and power diminished.

[Mirymate]

I was thinking today about the reality bending changes that Marvel's 616 has been through the last few years, Scarlet Witches, Infinity Gems, Agardian God stuff among others. And I say last few years, but Marvel has a history of alternate reality shifts that leave a lasting mark on 616 proper. So somewhere in all that, I'm hoping there's a way to reclaim Lucas Bishop from where ever he went. Yes, yes, I know, Bishop went all Terminator and chased Cable and hope through time before they stranded Bishop in time to die. But see, the more I read over the events of the mutant messiah story where Bishop first goes nuts, his change of character is so abrupt that not even the given explination works for me.

Quick Bishop background: Bishop is from about 80 years in the future. He is the grandson of Gateway. The X-Men are killed decades earlier, betrayed from within by a menace lost to his history. The aftermath plays out like "Days of Future Present", with a mass Sentinel release, the Sentinels taking over, mutants being rounded up and killed, humans inslaved, whole nine yards. Lucas Bishop and his sister Shard grew up in a mutant concertration camp where their parents were killed, by their grandmother, who claimed to be an alliey of the X-Men, and a man named LeBeau known as Witness as he was the last to see the X-Men alive. Before Lucas reaches his teens, something called the Summers Rebelion brings an end to the camps, and mutants are allowed to police themselves. The police force, known as the X.S.E., counted both Bishops as members, and they counted Emplates, mutant vampires similar to the Gen X foe, anti-human gangs, and nuts like Trevor Fitzroy enemies. While chasing Fitzroy and his gang, Bishop's Omega Squad of the XSE end up following Trevor back in time to "our" present. The X-Men are alive, not yet betrayed, and after his squad mates fall in battle, Bishop is asked to join the team. Bishop relates what he knows about their future, including an interupted recording of Jean confronting their betrayer. Bishop dedicates himself to preventing that betrayal. Well as it turned out, Charles Xavier as Onslaught was the traitor, as shown when he attacks Jean in the middle of the exact recording Bishop had been carrying. (Why Bishop had it on him in the first place, I don't know) Well of course the X-Men all survivied the Onslaught mess, and thus Bishop's timeline is averted. Lucas goes on to become a solid member of the team.

Flashforward to the Messiah Complex story. Now it's revealed that the child we know as Hope in Bishop's timeline causes the deaths of a million humans and is the trigger event that causes the government to unleash the Sentinels enmass. Lucas always wished he could have stopped that event somehow, and thus decides to kill the baby no matter what the cost. But wait a minute... Bishop's timeline was already changed by the X-Men's defeat of Onslaught. Why then was he so sure that this baby would have to die to prevent something that had already been prevented? He'd stated repeatedly after Onslaught that events were proceeding differently, and that the future was now uncertain.

My theory is that at some point in all that reality hoping, including at least one solo side trip through time, that the 616 was inhabited by a different Bishop than we had originally gotten to know. Not sure where or when it happened, but that's what make me feel better about an interesting character devolving into a one-note killer.

[Mirymate]

While I'm at it, other recently dead folks that I figure will be back soon...

Thor... this is what official death number three? And his last resurrection was fairly recently? Yeah, he'll be back by summer.

Thanos... sure they collapsed a universe on him this time, but if you think that's going to be enough to stop him, then you don't know Thanos. And he will probably have Nova and Star Lord in tow.

Adam Magnus Warlock... another repeat resurrection specialist. I'm a Marvel history nut and I've lost track of the number of times he's died and self resurrected. Not even a question.

James Buchanan Barnes... well... read Fear Itself 7.1. It'll make Valo happy if no one else.

Sabretooth, Omega Red, Silver Samurai and the rest of Wolverine's usual rogues gallery Marvel's seen fit to kill in favor of more Logan vs Daken & a never ending line of shadowy figures manipulating everything over and over and over again. In the near future some one's going to realize they've written themselves into a corner. On that day, a lot of folks get their Get-Out-Of-Hell-Free cards.

Emil Blonsky... Cause at this point, he'll have two Hulks to hate. I say restore him to life and his original, first appearance power level and let him go to town on the whole irradiated family.