Batman R.I.P. Discussion **Spoilers**

[neolego]

I was browsing the web and came across this picture from Comic Con. It appears to be the teaser for Post R.I.P. where these 5 will battle for the Cowl. So, that got me to wondering, what do you guys think about this? We are talking about the posibility of killing Batman off (maybe Temp, maybe for good, but probably for Temp). And, in the process someone else will have to don the cape. So, what do you say, Good idea or bad idea? And, who do you think should take over as Batman? Share you thoughts.

My vote goes to Nightwing. I've read Dick Grayson for ever and as much as I enjoyed him as Robin, it was when he took up the Nightwing mantle that I learned to love him. Dick started like Bruce, with a score to settle, but Dick has evolved where Bruce has not. Dick doesn't fight out of anger or guilt, he truly enjoys being a Hero. The stories could follow his struggle to take the place of an icon and it could be a much more optimistic time for Gotham to grow.

Of course, we have to know that if this happens it wouldn't last long. DC may be dumb at times, but no one is dumb enough to kill off one of the greatest characters of all time. Sure Marvel did the same thing with Cap, but Steve Rogers isn't even in the same league with Bruce Wayne. In fact, Winter Soldier is more enjoyable as Cap than Steve has been. However, to think they can have the same success with Batman is a bit of a stretch! neo

Edited December 4, 2008 by neolego

[Havoc 05]

Geez killing Batman? Have they no shame... Thats like killing super---

oh yeah....

Well watch DC continuity go down the drains once more...

He's not dead.... He can't be dead...

[karamazov80]

I hate to be so negative about this, but I am sick to death of the stupid "kill off a major character" gimmick. Killing off Batman. As if. I don't care who takes over. . .Catwoman, I guess. And I don't believe for one second that Steve Rogers is dead "for good." Sometimes I really hate the comic industry.

[TBT!]

Dick!

No not Neo, Grayson.

Of all of those Grayson is the only one rounded enough to take the mantle of the bat. He's even worn the cowl before. (Go read prodigal)

CatWomen is well... a women, isn't there a batwoman out there already?

Hush... ok so he plays a good long game and is obvisouly smart and can look after himself but is also more than a little nuts!

Nightwing... Groomed by the batman, has grown into his own man and lead the JLA at one point. if it were one of these it SHOULD be him.

Jaycen Todd... Didn't we already go down the dark batman road in knightfall?

Tim Drake... One day he would make a great batman But he's still young and probably not physically intimidating enough to be the bat.

So in order: DG, TD, JT, Hush, Catwomen.

Of course DC wont go for the obvious choice. I suspect it will be Jaycen Todd and they will just re-run the knightfall storyline where he oversteps the line and bruce comes back to reclaim the mantle of the bat.

I also don't think they will Kill Bruce Wayne rather that they will do something to make seperate from the batman leaving his whereabouts ambigious. (just like no mans land)

To be honest I've not followed the bat stories for couple of years and it stinks of publicity stunt so if I read this it will be as TPB later.

T.

[MiniFiend UK]

If they wherever to replace Bruce it would have to be Dick Grayson.

Drake is to young. Everyone hates Jason. Hush is a villain as far as I know (havent kept up with batman stories) and err Catwoman is the wrong sex obviously.

[Nestlé]

Nothing frustrates me like people who make stingy remarks about things they know nothing about.

"DC continuity" has been solid for the last 20 years, so try reading a comic before you make a comment about it Havok.

As for "killing DC heroes" and how long that lasts, only Hal Jordan (GL), Oliver Queen (GA), Superman & Barry Allen (Flash) of the major DC characters have ever died and come back to life (Unlike Marvel who has killed EVERY ONE of their characters at some point), Superman stayed dead for a year, Hal 5 years, Oliver 6 years & Barry 22 years.

Wow. Chew on that one a little bit.

Now, back on topic.

I haven't been reading Batman RIP, but I've been really considering it.

It's important to note that DC has stressed that RIP might not stand for "Rest In Peace". It might even be an early retirement.

Of the characters shown Jason Todd is a dick, who I HATE. Catwoman may be Bruce's lover, but she still... Nope. Hush, well I don't want to spoil anything about him for people who don't know him, but 'no.'

That leaves Dick and Tim. Of the 5, Dick is my fav. but Tim has fought tooth and nail for his spot at Batman.

As much as I love Nightwing I'd hold that spot for Tim.

... Especailly if you've read Geoff Johns' Teen Titans run.

Tim becomes one nasty Batman... ...

[neolego]

Dick!

No not Neo, Grayson.

Alright, it's quotes like that, that get your face smashed in with a gravity hammer. Careful .

As for R.I.P., it's not been much fun. Morrison is a great writer, but I believe he's a little too "out there" for the Bat. That being said they are bringing in Neil Gaiman to put up after R.I.P. which could be VERY interesting.

To be honest, as a fan, I hope this happens. I would love nothing more to see Batman shaken up a bit. Now, I don't want Bruce gone for good, but a few years off from Bruce might be what the doctor ordered. As Brubaker is showing us, you can still write phenominal book even without the main character. Batman is an Icon and will live on, but Bruce is only flesh and blood. It would be a nice chance.

With that, I choose Dick because he has always been my favorite. At the age I started reading I liked Robin more than Batman. I could see myself in the "partner role" more than the lead. That followed into Nightwing and he is still one of my favorite heroes (and minimates for that matter). BUT, it would be nice to see Jason take the reigns. The more I thought about it, the more obvious a choice Dick is. Tim is still too young, too small to pull it off. And Hush is a bad guy. It would be something of a nice twist to see Jason take up the Cowl and have to deal with Tim and Dick.

I don't know, I'm just one for Drama. I like to be suprised! I would love to see a big shock and awe for Batman in the coming year. I guess we'll just have to see if DC can deliver! neo

[Trekker 42]

I pick Catwoman because it sounds fun to me. Really this sounds like Death of Cap all over again.

[Nestlé]

Have you been reading it Neo?

If so, toss some spoiler boxes our way. I'd like to know if I should pick it up.

I think it's important to NOT look at this as a publicity stunt. It is, but that's not what Morisson had in mind. He's been building towards RIP since he started on the book over 2 years ago.

I'm not sure there's room for another female bat, but I would rather see Hush become Batman than Jason.

Everyone saying he'd make a good Batman... Where's that Gravity Hammer?

Seriously, Jason is such a horrible character that even thinking about him I get a bad taste towards DC in my mouth.

Realistically I think Robin SHOULD get it, BUT Hush would make the best Batman.

I can't way anything more since the Hush story is all about trying to find out WHO he is, but he'd be a good fit.

As for Dick, he is probably one of my favorite characters in DC, but I like him where he's at.

I like how he's grown and how he's always developing as a character. No Batman for you.

Disclaimer: Sorry, earlier I posted that Hal was dead for 5 years. I realize I was actually wrong there. I was thinking about how long he HADN'T been GL. He was Parralax for awhile. He was only actually dead for about 2-3 years.

[Havoc 05]

Nothing frustrates me like people who make stingy remarks about things they know nothing about.

"DC continuity" has been solid for the last 20 years, so try reading a comic before you make a comment about it Havok.

Didn't mean to offend anyone.

I just find character deaths... (In DC, marvel, or any other) to be rather unnecessary, and useless if they're going to bring the character back. And if he isn't then it will just be other characters taking up the mantle.

And you're right, I stopped reading comics about two years ago anyway. (last Batman was Hush)

Minimates are my passion now

Edited July 29, 2008 by Havoc 05

[Nestlé]

Don't worry about it Havoc. I said frustrated, not offended.

It just seems like lots of people are bashing things they no nothing about recently... Okay, I'm sure it's not just recently, but you get my point.

I DO however totally agree with you about character deaths. Unnecessary ones not only bore me, I feel like they insult the reader.

It's pretty much why I dropped X-Men. At what point does it become clear that Pheonix, Wolvering, Cyclops, Colossus, ect. will just be back from the dead in a few issues (okay, so Colossus stayed dead for awhile, but my point is made).

I feel like it's a slap in the face.

That's why I'm crossing my fingers here. I hope they treat this with some respect. I mean come on... It's Batman!

I'm not sure they can "hurt" him again, since that's what they did in the 90's to bring in a new Batman (Jean Paul who became Azrael). I think Bruce has to either retire or die... Or go missing for a LONG time.

[karamazov80]

I'm interested in your argument about the length of deaths, Nestle. It seems like, if a character dies and comes back a few issues later, it is not OK, but it is OK if they die and come back years later. Since the end result is the same, and death is pretty much a completely meaningless concept in funny books (since it only lasts as long as the writers/editors of the comics want it to last), why does the length matter to you?

I'm honestly curious, I'm not trying to pick a fight. It just all seems the same to me. Personally, I am glad that the original Hourman was brought back to life (is he still "alive" in the comics? He hasn't been in the new JSA series from what I've seen).

[TBT!]

Don't worry about it Havoc. I said frustrated, not offended.

It just seems like lots of people are bashing things they no nothing about recently... Okay, I'm sure it's not just recently, but you get my point.

I DO however totally agree with you about character deaths. Unnecessary ones not only bore me, I feel like they insult the reader.

It's pretty much why I dropped X-Men. At what point does it become clear that Pheonix, Wolvering, Cyclops, Colossus, ect. will just be back from the dead in a few issues (okay, so Colossus stayed dead for awhile, but my point is made).

I feel like it's a slap in the face.

That's why I'm crossing my fingers here. I hope they treat this with some respect. I mean come on... It's Batman!

I'm not sure they can "hurt" him again, since that's what they did in the 90's to bring in a new Batman (Jean Paul who became Azrael). I think Bruce has to either retire or die... Or go missing for a LONG time.

I havent read with any continuity since "no mans land" so these could be horribly wide of the mark but these are my chief theories...

Morrison is pushing towards a mental breakdown of some sort, either he simply forces BW to accept he's nuts and is institutionalised for his own good. Perhaps he is having delusions (All part of my mental breakdown theory) and that somehow he crosses a line and kills someone? The impact of what he's done could make a mentally unstable BW start to second guess himself and put himself into retirement? It would explain how we could get a RIP without him dying. The rest in peace is his victim not the Batman.

Just a thought... Discuss.

BTW I have a competing theory but havent quiet managed to get a full handle on yet. It's more about his origins and parents and the RIP is that he feels he can finally let his parents "rest in peace" and retires/disappear to go find 'the real Bruce Wayne'

T.

[Alpheon]

I'm interested in your argument about the length of deaths, Nestle. It seems like, if a character dies and comes back a few issues later, it is not OK, but it is OK if they die and come back years later. Since the end result is the same, and death is pretty much a completely meaningless concept in funny books (since it only lasts as long as the writers/editors of the comics want it to last), why does the length matter to you?

I'm honestly curious, I'm not trying to pick a fight. It just all seems the same to me. Personally, I am glad that the original Hourman was brought back to life (is he still "alive" in the comics? He hasn't been in the new JSA series from what I've seen).

I was thinking the same thing. To me, personally, bringing a character back from "death" only a few issues later is meaningless, stupid, and as you said Nestle--insulting. However, bringing a character back YEARS later seems like poor planning, and an insult to the creative staff that was on board at the time of said character's demise. Pulling a character out of the bottom drawer, only to realize he's dead, then resurrect him/her to suit their purpose (and then often kill him off again shortly afterward, ala Wonder Man) is always how that's looked to me (I understand it may not actually happen that way). It shows a disrespect to the fanbase, because they seem to figure we really don't care either way--we just want comics, and "retro" characters somehow make the comics more "relevant."

It's certainly within the realm of possibility that there is a long term plan when writing the death of a character. Maybe they meant to bring Barry Allen back 20 years later. I really have no way of knowing.

And X-Men...oy. They're the worst. It's funny, because whenever you kill a character and bring them back, it damages the trust you have with the reader. I doubt any of us will ever believe the X-Men staff again if they tried to pull a "He's really, finally, truly dead." No matter what they told us, we'd know the character in question would pop up again sometime within the next ten/twenty years.

Also...I don't think they've ever actually killed Spider-Man. I could be wrong, of course.

Oh! And I pick Nightwing. I think he'd be the best choice, but I also bet they'll do Drake, unfortunately. I can just see that happening.

Edited July 30, 2008 by Alpheon

[neolego]

For Nestle:

If you haven't followed any of Morrison's run it starts with Batman and Son. Where Talia comes back into the picture and Bruce finds out he has a son. It was OK. Then RIP kicked off a month ago and is basically the story of Batman's downfall. A force known only as "Black Glove" is out to take Batman down. It is very out there and I'm not sure it's good yet. There have only been 3 issues, and only 1 of those have been "good". I think he is building to something that could be cool, but Grant can sometimes be out there. The final page of the last issues left me confussed as well as wanting the next issues to find out what the crap is going on! neo

[Nestlé]

Thanks Neo. I agree Grant M can be a sketchy writer at times. Kind of like what's happenning in Final Crisis. Will it turn out awesome? *Crosses fingers*.

Interesting theory TBT. Keep building on it and lyou might have something better than Grant does.

Alright, Alph and Kara.

Here goes:

Resurrections can be a tricky thing. But it's important to note that in SOME cases they can be done right: Perfect example is Donna Troy. She died, had a funeral and IN THE SAME ISSUE revealed that she was "reborn" on a distant planet fighting a war. The writers showed restraint however and didn't bring her back into comics for 3 years.

There you have a "long term plan" AND a resurrection that takes time.

Sometimes writers make mistakes though. I've brought up Ice on these Forums before. I think it was Chuck Dixon who was writing Justice League at the time when she died. AS SOON AS the issue printed he, like everyone else knew killing her was a mistake. Still, they decided to respect their readers by keeping her dead for 12 years.

In this case resurrection wasn't the mistake, but instead the resolution to the mistake.

Still there are other cases like Hal Jordan who was brought back because fans demanded it. Doesn't that seem like a good reason to change something?

Now, I want to make it clear that DC DOES NOT always make the right choices. Realistically did ANYONE want Jason Todd back? He was killed after DC took a vote from readers for pete's sake!

Also, Barry, in my opinion should've stayed dead. After over 2 decades I think people had come to grips with the fact he was gone. That was disappointing.

I guess I'm saying that there IS room for hero deaths and comebacks... Just don't do them to often. *cough* X-Men. *cough*

(Spider-man DID die during Infinite Gauntlet. I'm not ssure, maybe other stuff too. )

[vbpanizzi]

The old phrase was no one stays dead in comics except Uncle Ben, Bucky and Jason Todd. We now have 2 of the 3 back running around one IMO was done well the other was done just to urinate in the faces of Batman fans. I have no problems with death/resurrection stories. I enjoy them as long as they are well executed. Ra's al Ghul is one of my favorite characters of all time, when they killed him off I was satisfied he died in a good story it sucked he was gone but hey sometimes these things happen. When I found out they were bringing him back I was stoked. I read it and I wish they had left him dead. I hate Hal Jordan and Oliver Queen, I was happy when they bit it, hell I did a little dance. They have brought both characters back and it was well thought out and well written and well executed so I don't mind that they are back. Barry died a noble death, was a noble character his rebirth was $#)t. Give me a good story and you can kill anyone. Give me a better story and you can bring them back.

As far as the X-men go, Jean is linked to the Pheonix it is inevitible she will come back, other characters have stayed very dead in the X mythos for every one you point out I am sure I could counter and I am not that deep in pre 90s knowledge. Destiny, Douglock, Thunderbird, are the ones that easily spring to mind.

Spidey did die in IG but so did half the universe and his comics didn't really have him dead in them so I don't think that counts.

[karamazov80]

As far as the X-men go, Jean is linked to the Pheonix it is inevitible she will come back

Couldn't the same be said for Ra's? His whole gimmick is the "Lazarus Pit," after all. Plus, I didn't know that "Douglock" died, but I did know that "Doug Ramsey" died prior to that, and was kind of reborn, so that wasn't even his first brush with the reaper.

[neolego]

You know, I've never had a problem with the dead/alive thing. My only problem comes from gimmicks! panizzi had a great point when he paralleled Bucky to Jason Todd. First I have no problem with Jason Todd coming back, but at the same time his story was handled poorly. In fact, I can't even remember many of the details because it was just lame. Winter Soldier on the other hand was handled fantastic. It's all the way a story is told. Maybe Jason Todd survived with amnieia. After a few years he gets his mind back and heads to Gotham, only to find a New Robin. Instead of a reunion, he get argry and spends years in hiding planning the perfect revenge for the Batman. Something like that could have been amazing. Make it personal between Batman/Robin and Todd. But alas, we got a Vigilante good guy/bad guy routine that had little to no emotion and it didn't work.

So, how to handle Batman's death? I'm sure Grant has better ideas then me, but I'd really like to seem them do it. It worked for Superman way back then. That was the height of Superman's Popularity, his death! I'd like to see Batman killed and stay dead at least for a year or so. The story could be Talia is back, she finds Bruce dead (or just about) and takes him. To everyone else he is dead. Maybe Talia has a lazaris pit that she takes Bruce too. Then, Bruce is reborn but not as Batman, as Ra's Al Ghul. He then becomes deranged and bad with Talia by his side. The only person that can stop the new Ra's is Batman, so someone has to take up the mantle. Dunno, just playing around. Reguarless, I think if written well, it could be a success like Superman. It needs to be emotional and fundamental but we all know Bruce isn't staying dead!

The problem with some of those that were mentioned, especially Jean, is that there return(s) are not written well, so they loose impact. Another perfect example of this is Hal Jordan. I personal never liked him, I was a Kyle fan, but the story they used to bring him back was written well and it worked. I can at least say this for DC, when they do bring a character back, it's normally well through out and most of the time well written.

On that note, is anyone else here dang excited to read the new Flash Johns is working one? neo

[Nestlé]

Of course!

I'll read ANYTHING Geoff is writing!

(Pick up "Rogues Revenge" on shelves now for some Johns Flash stuff. )

[Trekker 42]

Also...I don't think they've ever actually killed Spider-Man. I could be wrong, of course.

The Other. He died in the Other. I know it barely counts-he came back in the same series-But still, he died.

[Mattallica]

I don't think anyone should(or could) take over as Batman.

[Nestlé]

Nice Trekker.

LOL.

[Trekker 42]

Nice Trekker.

LOL.

What? What's "nice"?

[neolego]

Ok, I haven't posted in a while, but I've been thinking about this topic recently. The more I think about it, the more I think this is a GREAT idea! I don't like to keep comparing the two, but it's hard not too. This is DC's Captain America story. I've been reading back through my Cap Hardcovers and the more I read it the more I think THIS should have been RIP.

Batman dies, and now we have Tim and Dick not only trying to deal with the death in their own ways, but also taking over the mantel. Gotham needs Batman, period! But think of the story, to me it's not really about Batman as it is about Bruce. Who takes over for Bruce? Does he have a will that leaves everything to Dick or to Tim or to Both. Where does Jason Todd and Barbara fit in the picture. To be honest, the more I read RIP the more I think HUSH is going to take over. In fact, the reason I think Hush wears bandages is because he has had physical surgery to be idential to Bruce. So, does Bruce die and then Hush take over. And what does the rest of the Bat gang do with that. Obviously they know that Hush isn't Batman, but they can't come out and say anything right. And if they did wouldn't Hush just expose the truth. So, they are forced to work with Hush as the new Batman and new Bruce. Man, I'm getting pumped. I don't know how it's going to turn out, but if they writing it there (which it has been) this may be one of the best comic arcs in a long time. So, for right now RIP has all my attention. We'll just wait and see what happens! neo