wallbreaker2.0 Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 The falling are examples of items I've seen on ebay and their prices: Black Spidey original price $10 on ebay it sold for $80 Flash/Martian Manhunter Javelin original price $15 selling on ebay $150 hasn't ended yet Soudwave reissue orginal price $40 I saw it sell for $80 the price has gone down since then Transformers Classic deluxe Starscream original price $13 sold on ebay for $53 Uh yeah that doesn't sound to foolish to me. :tongue: The problem with the comics in the 90's was they relied to heavily on the gimmicks foil covers and what not, and not on quality the art and the stories were garbage. I know I quit reading comics in the 90's because they were so terrible I have since started again because they are genuinely good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickle Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 yes, there are those exceptions, but look at all the other toys from the same line that are worth less then they were to purchase. if you have some sort of "in" or are great at predicting what will be worth investing in, then more than most the time you loose out. unlike, say, all 1977 star wars toys, no.1 G.I.JOES, vintage barbie, red line hot wheels. those will never depreciate in value if kept in the right condition. More often then not in the modern market it is about being the first to have it that sets off the high price tag in the secondary market. On the other hand though, if you are great at predicting what people will pay big bucks for (i.e. TF movie regular bumblebee, mcquarrie star wars, littlest pet shop black scotty, hot wheels "super" treasure hunts) then you can turn a quick profit. a very nice profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallbreaker2.0 Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 So then Pickle what your saying is that it may not be entirely foolish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pickle Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 i am saying there are exceptions. after all there are exceptions to every rule in life. and i did imply that limited stuff can be a good investment. yeah i know what you all are thinking. i argue with my own previous opinions all the time finding flaws. on the other hand here (lol i am doing it again) for long term investment in toys, the way to go is vintage, once all the people who really want that black spidey minimate(to bring it back to this discussion) have it then the price will decrease. hope my way of thinking does not frustrate you guys relaying on toys as investments is the part that is foolish. and you know wallbreaker2.0, i will look at this tomarrow and be like pickle you moron. :biggrin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reideen1313 Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 The falling are examples of items I've seen on ebay and their prices: Black Spidey original price $10 on ebay it sold for $80 Which black spidey? This one? Or the minimate black spidey? (currently they're running $20 - $50). Flash/Martian Manhunter Javelin original price $15 selling on ebay $150 hasn't ended yet Now compare that to the Chemical Warehouse set or the con exclusive Batwing. What are those prices like? Soudwave reissue orginal price $40 I saw it sell for $80 the price has gone down since then Here are two selling for less than the original price. They still have time on them though - lets look at completed auctions. $47, $51, $39, $42, $36, etc. Still think this was such a great 'investment'? Transformers Classic deluxe Starscream original price $13 sold on ebay for $53 Prices on completed auctions are averaging about $30-ish. There's also a huge marketing push backing the movie and driving prices up on Transformer related product. Check back on prices for this figure in a year and see where the long term 'investment' value is. I'll bet it levels out at about $15 - $17. Again, not a great 'return' IMO. Uh yeah that doesn't sound to foolish to me. :tongue: You know what they say about a fool and their money.... Now lets look at some previously 'hot investment' figures: Toybiz's 1st Storm figure from the Xmen line I sold 5 or 6 of these back when they were fairly new for about $15 - $20 each - keep in mind, retail on them was about $6.00. Do you think the people who paid me $15 made a good 'investment' considering the figure I linked to sold for $2.25 - LESS than retail price? How about Cannonball from the same line. He was really hot back in 93. They painted him pink in error initially and the pink variant was selling for big $$. Here's a seller that still thinks they're worth the 'investment' Here's one that hasn't been sold at a buy it now price of $3.99 - again, less than retail. Think I should buy it and try to sell it for $50 like the 1st seller? Something more recent perhaps? How about a face off Captain America/Zemo two pack - $6.25. Retail was $15.99 each IIRC. These were selling for $20 - $25 on ebay at one time. Investment or crap? Gold variant Ram Man from the MOTU series - .99 WAY less than retail, much less than how much they were going for a couple of years ago. Iron Cross Heman variant - $1.00 - again, way less than retail. My point is, for every one item you show me that was 'worth the investment' I can show you 20 that weren't. So yes, I'd say that toys as an investment is very foolish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drgnrbrn316 Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 The way these trends generally work is that someone somehow has a hard to find something. They drop it on eBay and a lot of people that don't have one decide they must have it. It ends up selling for way more than its probably worth. Thousands of people with the same item see those dollar signs and decide to try duplicating the transaction. Suddenly, something that was impossible to find is not so hard to find. Factor in that the more of these sell, the smaller the number of rich people still looking for the item. The only way to really score big is to identify something that will be hard to find, grab it cheap, and sell it at the right time, which is nearly impossible to predict. Odds are, if you read in ToyFare that something is worth 250% its original cost, then its no longer worth that much. You can make money on toys, it just ain't easy or likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infallible Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 I think it's been stated pretty well that buying toys as a long-term investment is not a good idea in today's market. The arguments already put forth are as good as anything I would have said, so I'm only going to say that I've seen the way it works first hand. 12 years ago, when Kenner released the new Star Wars toys, people picked them up like crazy because of how the vintage figures sold. Now, you can get those figures for less than their original retail price. You're never going to see the increase in value of toys like you did for vintage toys again. If you think that buying toys is an investment, you may as well just give that money to charity. At least then someone will benefit. I will, however, say that buyers like myself are not in the minority. How many folks here are hoarding their MiniMates to sell someday? Instead, how many here buy them because they like the property and think the design is unique? People that buy for investments don't rip open the package and start to customize them. They put them in little baggies in dark rooms, not on awesome displays in their bedrooms and living rooms. I have to reiterate, why is it bad for the prices on the secondary market to fall? Yes, it hurts a TINY minority of buyers that buy toys as "investments," but for the vast vast majority of buyers, it's a great boon. Variants are in greater supply and cheaper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallbreaker2.0 Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 I don't recall saying anything about modern toys being a good long term investment. If you Buy at the right time and sell at the right it is possible to double your money or even better. I would also like to state that in the example of the Soundwave I actually said myself that the prices have fallen since the example I used so Reideen1313 pointing out cheaper ones is a moot point and the black Spidey was a minimate it sold just before the movie came out. My original point was that although unlikely there was money to be made in secondary market for example If you were to watch ebay and see something selling for twice three times your cost and were able to pick some up on clearance UNlikely yes of course foolish I for one don't think so. Now to get back to the point if I may Reideen1313 you yourself said that a reissue Black Spidey is not a good idea. I for one would feel betrayed and dissillusioned I don't think I would, but I would consider quiting collecting ( I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one review the thread). I like to believe that people still keep there word ( dst promise not to rerelease variants). I don't personally buy minimates as an investment but do like to think that I have something that is hard to find I don't however take any joy when a true fan ie infallible and the others are without certain minimates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reideen1313 Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 I don't recall saying anything about modern toys being a good long term investment. If you Buy at the right time and sell at the right it is possible to double your money or even better. See - you aren't talking about investing then - you're talking about scalping. There's the difference. Thanks for the clarification. I would also like to state that in the example of the Soundwave I actually said myself that the prices have fallen since the example I used so Reideen1313 pointing out cheaper ones is a moot point Again, not a good investment based on the long term value of the item. It might have been a good item for a scalper to throw up on ebay to turn a quick profit, but not something an 'investor' would look to put their money into. My original point was that although unlikely there was money to be made in secondary market for example If you were to watch ebay and see something selling for twice three times your cost and were able to pick some up on clearance UNlikely yes of course foolish I for one don't think so. Foolish investment, yes. Foolish to be a scalper to make a quick buck? It's your karma - I'll leave that to you to decide. Now to get back to the point if I may Reideen1313 you yourself said that a reissue Black Spidey is not a good idea. Yep. I did. Still feel that way. I for one would feel betrayed and dissillusioned I don't think I would, but I would consider quiting collecting ( I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one review the thread). I like to believe that people still keep there word ( dst promise not to rerelease variants). I don't personally buy minimates as an investment but do like to think that I have something that is hard to find I don't however take any joy when a true fan ie infallible and the others are without certain minimates. Agreed on most points. I wouldn't consider quitting my collection - I've invested too much enjoyment in the hobby to quit at this point. The only thing that would make me consider quitting is the end of the line - a point I was almost at about a year ago. The wise Ady Carter advised me to reconsider and wait a bit longer and...I'm still here. (Thanks again Ady! How's your puff ball on a shoulder action figure idea coming? ) I don't think anyone here 'takes any joy when others are without certain minimates' - maybe they are - maybe not. Regardless, as has been pointed out more than once (review the thread) Black Spidey is fairly easy to get. There are several on ebay right now. It isn't a rare figure. What people are saying is they don't want to pay the price the 'mate currently goes for. That's a personal choice keeping them from getting one - not an inability due to lack of product on the market - be it primary or secondary. I don't see anyone b!tching that they can't get prototypes and screaming for AA/DST to release more of those to the market. I don't see threads about how rare Gold or Silver Spideys are and screaming that they need a regular market mass release 'so everyone can have one'. This discussion only happens with Black Spidey. Why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBT! Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Seeing as this isn't really about Black spidey anymore Here's one more thing to consider folks.... It's what I like to call the collectors 'wall', those who have everything will know it well, those who dont will look at me like I'm crazy. It's simple Collections are only really fun when you don't have everything... I have pretty much every minimate ever made except a silver spidey. The day I caught up was a joy... the next day sucked and every day since have pretty much sucked in comparison, 90% of the fun in collecting is "collecting", once you have everything you hit a wall and it takes a lot of effort to keep your enthusiasm up, chases and harder to find figures make that chase longer and more exciting, if you could all get every minimate you wanted you'd have complete collections and be bored. New releases I hear you say... nope not the same buzz as playing catchup. I opened a wave 4 of DC and the Spidey pack this week and barely notice of what I'm opening, yes they are great and the DC wave has some of the best DC characters yet... but I pre-ordered them, knew they were coming and worse still expected to get them. On short the thrill of the chase is one of the biggest collecting buzzes, gettting everything cheap and now isn't all it's cracked up to be. T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will Work 4 Mates Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Seeing as this isn't really about Black spidey anymore Here's one more thing to consider folks.... It's what I like to call the collectors 'wall', those who have everything will know it well, those who dont will look at me like I'm crazy. It's simple Collections are only really fun when you don't have everything... I have pretty much every minimate ever made except a silver spidey. The day I caught up was a joy... the next day sucked and every day since have pretty much sucked in comparison, 90% of the fun in collecting is "collecting", once you have everything you hit a wall and it takes a lot of effort to keep your enthusiasm up, chases and harder to find figures make that chase longer and more exciting, if you could all get every minimate you wanted you'd have complete collections and be bored. New releases I hear you say... nope not the same buzz as playing catchup. I opened a wave 4 of DC and the Spidey pack this week and barely notice of what I'm opening, yes they are great and the DC wave has some of the best DC characters yet... but I pre-ordered them, knew they were coming and worse still expected to get them. On short the thrill of the chase is one of the biggest collecting buzzes, gettting everything cheap and now isn't all it's cracked up to be. T. Fantastic note here. I could not agree more. I can relate this to women as well. The chase is everything. Because once you've got it, then she starts nagging, and she looks less cute than she originally was, etc. etc. etc. Next thing you know you have 2 kids by the broad, and you hate her guts. You spend all of your free time thinking about chasing all the cuter, younger versions of your girl. Yes. I have issues. WW4M P.S. I am so extremely pleased with the style and quality of the DC line. I wish marvel would take notes, and step their game up. This is just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reideen1313 Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 Fantastic note here. I could not agree more. I can relate this to women as well. The chase is everything. Because once you've got it, then she starts nagging, and she looks less cute than she originally was, etc. etc. etc. Next thing you know you have 2 kids by the broad, and you hate her guts. You spend all of your free time thinking about chasing all the cuter, younger versions of your girl. Yes. I have issues. Been there, got a divorce. I feel your pain. (Remarried to a wonderful woman who appreciates and supports my habits now, so it can work - you just have to find the right woman.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallbreaker2.0 Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 short term investment scalping hey po tate oh, po tot oh either way I don't care what you call it, it isn't foolish oppurtunistic sure, underhanded even, not foolish. Call it what you want all I said was there was money to be made. Reideen you keep hinting as though I'm a scalper and I've said that I don't buy minimates as a investment or to "scalp" them so could you quit it? Aren't the gold and silver Spidey's expensive due in part to the fact that they are plated with their corresponding precious metal namesakes (I'm in truth not sure about this). If trends continue the actual black Spidey's prices will come down on there own. A more useful outlet for all of the black Spidey energy ie rerelease, release similar but different and so forth, would be to try and organize the mmmv members who don't have black Spidey. Organize them in such a way that when black Spidey comes up on ebay they don't bid against eachother driving the prices up. There would have to be a certain level of trust members would have to be honest and not claim to not have one and actually just want another. Also it should be based on member senority. It's crazy and unlikely but it's an idea. Also to the staff if this sort of thing is shunned upon just delete this reply. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reideen1313 Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 short term investment scalping hey po tate oh, po tot oh either way I don't care what you call it, it isn't foolish oppurtunistic sure, underhanded even, not foolish. Call it what you want all I said was there was money to be made. Foolish and bad for your karma IMO, but to each their own... Reideen you keep hinting as though I'm a scalper and I've said that I don't buy minimates as a investment or to "scalp" them so could you quit it? No - sorry if that's the impression I've given. I'm not implying you're a scalper. What you're describing are scalper like ideas though. Take that for what you will. Aren't the gold and silver Spidey's expensive due in part to the fact that they are plated with their corresponding precious metal namesakes (I'm in truth not sure about this). No. They're just painted silver or gold. The reason they're so expensive is there are so few of them - thus driving the price up. Black Spidey is not the same - it is one of the rarer regular release 'mates, but certainly isn't the rarest, and like I said, is very easy to get if you're willing to pay for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM2 Dinobot Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 short term investment scalping Reideen you keep hinting as though I'm a scalper and I've said that I don't buy minimates as a investment or to "scalp" them so could you quit it? No - sorry if that's the impression I've given. I'm not implying you're a scalper. What you're describing are scalper like ideas though. Take that for what you will. Actually, that would be me. While I may not openly support scalpers, I don't hold anything against them because I don't see anything wrong with what they're doing. I've even played fast and loose with a few items myself in the past. Now, snipers, those are another story entirely. I can't stand those guys. To me though, it's really all about the hunt. I agree with what TBT said entirely. It's not about owning the item, it's about getting it. The more of a story about the chace there is behind the item, the more personal value it will have for you. I can relate on many levels, as I am rapidly approching event horizon on both my Minimate, Spiderman and Beast Era Transformer lines. It kinda sucks, but there's a reason I haven't been in such a rush to finish it all. Anyways, I'd suggest we get back on topic, but I'm not even sure what the topic is now. We seem to be going round and round. Bottom line: No Black Spidey reissue. The BD Black Spidey and the SM3 (multipule) Black Spideys are prolly the best shot at getting one for those of us who don't want to pay after market prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infallible Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 I don't think anyone here 'takes any joy when others are without certain minimates' - maybe they are - maybe not. Regardless, as has been pointed out more than once (review the thread) Black Spidey is fairly easy to get. There are several on ebay right now. It isn't a rare figure. What people are saying is they don't want to pay the price the 'mate currently goes for. That's a personal choice keeping them from getting one - not an inability due to lack of product on the market - be it primary or secondary. Aaaah, but there's the flaw in your argument. The reason the price is so high is because they are hard to find. Applying your logic, a gold Spidey is easy to get, if you offer up a cool million dollars for it. Black Spidey is a rare figure, and the prices on eBay demonstrate that because the rarity is reflected in the price. Shortages of supply raise the price. I don't see anyone b!tching that they can't get prototypes and screaming for AA/DST to release more of those to the market. I don't see threads about how rare Gold or Silver Spideys are and screaming that they need a regular market mass release 'so everyone can have one'. This discussion only happens with Black Spidey. Why is that? Why is it? Because there's huge demand for black Spidey. I consider myself a completist with superhero MiniMates, but even I have no desire for a gold or silver Spidey. But if I didn't have a black-suited Spider-Man, I'd surely want one bad. Prototypes, gold versions, and silver versions all appeal only to a very small subgroup of collectors. An outfit like the black suit appeals to a much much larger group of general comic fans that buy MiniMates. That's why this discussion only happens with black Spidey. And I have to whole-heartedly disagree with the following from Timbo: It's simple Collections are only really fun when you don't have everything... I don't find that at all. Personally, I find hunting down hard-to-find things to be annoying and detract from collecting. I enjoy getting new figures, and pre-order right away so I won't have to worry about hunting them down. For me, the owning is the fun part, not the finding. I've been buying these things since series 1, and I consider my collection complete. I've never felt this "wall" that you're talking about. If anything, knowing that I have everything gives me satisfaction, not boredom. It means that there's nothing left to concern myself with. Also, if "the hunt" is so much fun, why do you bother even preordering? But to bring it back around, I ask again: How do lower prices on the secondary market hurt anyone except scalpers? Also, who would a re-release hurt? It's my position that a re-release would not hurt anyone, and here's my reasoning. The entire population can be divided into three groups: If you already have a black Spider-Man, then you are not hurt. You already have it, and more on the market doesn't affect your possessions one way or the other. If you don't have a black Spider-Man, and want one, then you are not hurt. It's now much easier and cheaper to get one. If you don't have a black Spider-man, and don't want one, then you are not hurt. It doesn't matter to you anyway. The argument put forth against is generally the following from those that already have one: 'I'm upset because I paid $X for mine, and it is now available for only $Y." (where Y<X) I can't consider this a valid argument because at the time you purchased it, it was clearly worth $X to you. You voluntarily purchased the figure for $X. By this logic, the price for products should never go down. Though I'm making sure to put this in every post so that it's not overlooked: Because Diamond said that variants would never be re-released, i don't think a direct re-release of black Spidey should happen. That promise ought to be upheld. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBT! Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 And I have to whole-heartedly disagree with the following from Timbo: It's simple Collections are only really fun when you don't have everything... I don't find that at all. Personally, I find hunting down hard-to-find things to be annoying and detract from collecting. I enjoy getting new figures, and pre-order right away so I won't have to worry about hunting them down. For me, the owning is the fun part, not the finding. I've been buying these things since series 1, and I consider my collection complete. I've never felt this "wall" that you're talking about. If anything, knowing that I have everything gives me satisfaction, not boredom. It means that there's nothing left to concern myself with. Also, if "the hunt" is so much fun, why do you bother even preordering? I pre-order because I don't want to miss out, hunting is fun but intentionally hunting something that I can have easily doesn't bring any more satisfaction than pre-ordering as I know I'd just be kidding myself. If you've been collecting from wave one you've never had to play catchup so maybe you're in the 'wall' state and don't know it is because it's never been different? I guess it's different strokes for different folks although 90% of the people I talk to are bummed they don't have stuff to chase anymore. I'd be interested to see how others fall on this, esp those that started late and have caught up. T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wallbreaker2.0 Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 And I have to whole-heartedly disagree with the following from Timbo: It's simple Collections are only really fun when you don't have everything... I don't find that at all. Personally, I find hunting down hard-to-find things to be annoying and detract from collecting. I enjoy getting new figures, and pre-order right away so I won't have to worry about hunting them down. For me, the owning is the fun part, not the finding. I've been buying these things since series 1, and I consider my collection complete. I've never felt this "wall" that you're talking about. If anything, knowing that I have everything gives me satisfaction, not boredom. It means that there's nothing left to concern myself with. Also, if "the hunt" is so much fun, why do you bother even preordering? I pre-order because I don't want to miss out, hunting is fun but intentionally hunting something that I can have easily doesn't bring any more satisfaction than pre-ordering as I know I'd just be kidding myself. If you've been collecting from wave one you've never had to play catchup so maybe you're in the 'wall' state and don't know it is because it's never been different? I guess it's different strokes for different folks although 90% of the people I talk to are bummed they don't have stuff to chase anymore. I'd be interested to see how others fall on this, esp those that started late and have caught up. T. I have to agree with you there Timobo the most exciting part of collecting minimates for me was getting all the mates I missed having started at wave 8 there were quite a few. I hunted all over my town and when I found a store that had them I was in a frenzy, but the most excited I got through the whole catch up process was when I got a hold of black Spidey. Not only that but when I look at one of my minmates now I remember the story of how I a came in possesion of it and it's even more special because of that. I also agree with you on the point of different strokes for different folks it would seem that there are collectors out there that don't like chasing minimates. I can relate to them in a way because sometimes when I think there is a particular mate that I won't be able to get I actually get stressed out a little not fun right now it's blue suit prof. x. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanester Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 News flash! The Black Symbiote Spidey chase figure is still not being re-released! I have a black Spidey and I've helped others get them through trades and such. Its hard to find, yes, but don't give up. Pay what they are going for, hunt and find a deal, or cry because you don't have one. It won't make prices change. I don't much like scalpers, but they are not going away. I don't much like snipers, but they are easily beaten if you simply bid what you're willing to pay. I think that covers it for me and this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Webhead Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 nicely put shane...please someone lock it down! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infallible Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 I think we all know that it's not going to be re-issued, but, for me, talking about "what if it were" is interesting. It's neat to see how other people come into things, even if I don't agree with their premises. To my fellow collectors, I wish you the best of luck getting a black Spidey. Hopefully, they'll release a modified version of it at some point in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cappy Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 It's simple Collections are only really fun when you don't have everything... I have pretty much every minimate ever made except a silver spidey. The day I caught up was a joy... the next day sucked and every day since have pretty much sucked in comparison, 90% of the fun in collecting is "collecting", once you have everything you hit a wall and it takes a lot of effort to keep your enthusiasm up I hear what you're saying, Timbo. A while back I finished my 3" MiniMate collection, maybe the first collection I actually completed in my life. And the feeling I got was: huh. Sure, there was the initial thrill of being done, but then, "now what?" So I started trading away my 3-inchers. Collectors are weird ducks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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