Black Suit Spider-Man...

[Cappy]

*puts on Timbo's hat (because I like the long feather)*

5, As someone that has a Black Spidey & with at least one coming from the movie then I don't want yet another version of the same suit, I'd rather have that slot taken up with a new character not another spiderman variant that isn't even a new suit we havent seen!

Given that we will see more Spider-Man variants, one of them might as well be a revised classic black costume, yes?

[infallible]

Heh...I was just going to make another general post, but then you threw the debate-tactic gauntlet down of having to respond to everything. (Though I will cut them a bit to make the post shorter.)

1, They have said variants will not be re-released from pretty much day one...

Well, I'll actually grant you this one. This is why I think it'll never get a direct re-release. And while I think it should for other reasons, because Diamond has said this, to go back on it would be a violation of trust.

2, that's not really a reason other than complacency is it? I want a flash sports car, but cant afford one... If I really really wanted one then I could eventaully get it but I'd have to save to get it and then when I did I would cherish it all the more for having to toil over it.

Believe me, I'm not one to advocate people getting something just because they can't afford it. However, this is different from the sports car analogy. The only reason that this is expensive is because of the limited supply. And unlike diamonds or sports cars, the limited supply isn't because of natural rarity or initial parts. However, I have to take issue with the root of your argument. Saying that saving makes you cherish it more isn't valid. If that were the case, then every MiniMate should be priced at $200. After all, if you have to save for it, then you'll cherish it more. The reason that the argument isn't valid is because the price is disproportionate to the value. No way would anyone pay $200 for a standard MiniMate, and at the same time, I don't think black Spider-Man is worth $50. In a case like this one, spending that money for it actually makes the purchase *less* satisfying.

3, the Stealth Iron Man minimate is a very popular variant of a figure, possibly as much as Black Spidey

I don't think that we'll agree on this one. No way would I consider stealth Iron Man as popular or important as black Spider-Man. You said that version alwyas sells out, but that's because it's always a variant. So it's not a fair judge of popularity. I think to the more casual fan, the black suit is something that they'd recognize and remember Spider-Man wearing, but I don't think that's the case with stealth Iron Man. (I can include myself in that grouping; the Minimate Stealth IM was the first time I'd seen that outfit.) The reason this popularity matters is because you have a huge portion of potential collectors who will find this figure out of reach. It's one thing not to have black Elektra or unmasked Daredevil, but it's a different category not to have black Spidey.

4, Supposing marvel minimates had only gone 2-3 waves and they hadn't included it... my bets are you're all be complaining that they missed out and should have done the black spidey as part of that wave.

I realize why they did it so early. At the time it seemed like a perfect idea for a variant. However, in light of the success of the line, I think that it would be good to see this figure reach a broader audience.

5, As someone that has a Black Spidey & with at least one coming from the movie then I don't want yet another version of the same suit, I'd rather have that slot taken up with a new character not another spiderman variant that isn't even a new suit we havent seen!

I actually agree with this one as well. I don't think that right now is the time for it to come out. With melee and the various SM3 versions, now's probably not the best time. I'm just talking about re-release in general.

there was a crash on the price of these a couple of years back when Tower Records dumped a huge number of these on the market and the prices plummeted from $30 to $12 for the pack overnight.

Oh and if that's not a good enough example I know of one member that didn't have one of these picking the pack up for $20 from another member who had a 'spare' in the last few months.

The likelihood of such a thing is pretty small, plus, it will only help a small number of people get them. Not nearly the large amount of folks that would like to have them.

The argument that I have the biggest problem with is the people that say, "If they re-release it, my black Spidey will be less special." I see that as an irrationally selfish argument. Your Minimates are as special as you make them. Just because someone else has something doesn't mean that your thing is somehow worse. It's almost like saying that your stuff's value is solely based on how other people see it, and that it can only be worth something to you as long as other folks want it. Almost like pleasure from others' suffering. (I know that sounds dramatic, but you get my point.)

As much as I like the original figure, because they've said that they won't re-release variants, I don't think they should do a direct re-release. However, I do think they should get some kind of non-BD version of this figure out there.

[TBT!]

Given that we will see more Spider-Man variants, one of them might as well be a revised classic black costume, yes?

*puts on Cappy's hat (Yo ho yo ho a pirates life for me!)*

Why... we already have one that is pretty much perfect? That's the main point of my argument.

Also to answer "It shouldn't be a variant"... But that's it, it's not spideys regular costume, so it's literally just a variant...

I don't buy the it's more important than XYZ... OK everyone think of your favorite as of yet unmade marvel character, now ask yourself if you'd rather have that figure made or another version of black spidey? (especially as there is a chance you could pick up the black spidey).

It's not a case of I don't want mine to devalue, I agree with Infailable, it shouldn't be about money, it's about remaking a variant of a characters costume just because it's en-vogue at the moment when there are other figures that deserve that slot.

T.

[Valo487]

One thing I've read more than once in this topic that I find very puzzling is the explanation for why Spider-Man's second most famous look(after the red and blue of course) was a variant at all is because "they had no way of knowing it'd last this long." Umm, all right, but that doesn't really hold water since they released a hugely popular and famous costume as a variant but then released that preposterous Peter Parker/Spider-Man mate that was split down the middle as a regular release. Just call the decision what it is, a move used to generate interest in the line that has since somewhat backfired, at least in the sense that I believe DST knows how many people want one but are stuck because they vowed never to rerelease variants. And to those who say they'd stop collecting if DST ever rereleases it, I have to say that seems like a petty reason to abandon a line you enjoy.

And as far as Stealth Iron Man goes, I'm in the same boat as whoever said that mate was the first time they'd ever even seen that look. I never bought him when he came out, and don't intend to, it just doesn't interest me. But it's funny you mention him because earlier in this thread I said something about how ridiculous it was we were getting melee Black Suit Spidey, who is a variation of a very hard to find variant, and that it was the equivalent of releasing battle damaged stealth Iron Man. Basically, my point comes down to if they're never going to release a version of the comic black suit for mass retail, then releasing a variant of it is pointless, as I can't think of what you can possibly do with it if you're without the solid black suit look. What would people do with Battle Damaged Stealth Iron Man without an undamaged one?

[TBT!]

And to those who say they'd stop collecting if DST ever rereleases it, I have to say that seems like a petty reason to abandon a line you enjoy.

Basically, my point comes down to if they're never going to release a version of the comic black suit for mass retail, then releasing a variant of it is pointless, as I can't think of what you can possibly do with it if you're without the solid black suit look. What would people do with Battle Damaged Stealth Iron Man without an undamaged one?

*still playing devils advocate*

The comment about quitting was intentionally "drama queen" and was based on the fact that DST wont go back on their word And why should they, they decided to release variants as a nice bonus for those who made and effort to collect all of the line, if you don't have one then you aren't missing out on Spidey, you're missing one Spidey costume.

If the costume was that important to your collection why didn't you make the effort to find it, it's obviously not a must have or those posting they don't have would have found a way to get them already.

Your second point is kind of a bit moot :| WE ALREADY HAVE A BLACK SPIDERMAN! Just because you don't have one doesn't mean it doesn't exist. I didn't start collecting til wave 6 and it took me a few months to get a black Spidey but I have one, I used to have several but traded them out to those who didn't have one.

This thread is going to go round in circles forever because it's too subjective and mostly split between the haves and have nots. To be honest I really wouldn't mind if DST released a new look black spidey with blue highlights or whatever but am just playing along for fun.

Remember kids *It's all fun and games til someone gets an alien symbiote costume*

T.

[Valo487]

I see where you're coming from, and can relate as I've had some things that I paid more for end up being made available en masse to those who didn't bother the first time, I think it just comes down to of all the variants released, this one is the only one that is really questionable, as it represents a core part of Spider-Man's history and making it a variant, and so early on in the line as well, has been a problem for those who didn't get one and/or don't want to pay a premium for one. I keep an eye out via ebay for them but as much as I'd like one, I have a limit how much I'm going to pay for one single mate. Worst case scenario I'll just use the movie version, basically I guess my point is that it's a shame how hard it is and that unless they do release a new version of the look a lot of people won't get what appears to be a great mate.

[pickle]

.............I understand that some people get upset because they might have paid a premium on the secondary market. Having said that, I don't think that should influence Diamond one way or the other. Diamond sells a product, and they don't control the secondary market. They can't look at the items that way because it hinders them from meeting the needs of the market and hurts profitability....................

This i have to argue with. The whole point of making a chase varient is with the hopes that more people will want it, thus creating a demand in the secondary market, thus meaning they will sell whole cases of twelve just for one piece. By having an open mind to the secondary market, they have the option of making a larger profit, which they do because of the chase varients. I mean, why slap "limited edition" or "varient" on the package if you don't care about where it goes once it leaves the warehouse?

Just to be clear, i agree with the rest of what you are saying, but you don't seem to understand how a collectable toy company looks at ways to make a profit, espically a small company.

If i sound like an jerk and offend you, i do apologize.

[Reideen1313]

.............I understand that some people get upset because they might have paid a premium on the secondary market. Having said that, I don't think that should influence Diamond one way or the other. Diamond sells a product, and they don't control the secondary market. They can't look at the items that way because it hinders them from meeting the needs of the market and hurts profitability....................

This i have to argue with. The whole point of making a chase varient is with the hopes that more people will want it, thus creating a demand in the secondary market, thus meaning they will sell whole cases of twelve just for one piece. By having an open mind to the secondary market, they have the option of making a larger profit, which they do because of the chase varients. I mean, why slap "limited edition" or "varient" on the package if you don't care about where it goes once it leaves the warehouse?

Um...no.

DST is the manufacturer/distributor of said product. They sell to the retailer. They slap 'variant' on the package for a couple of reasons - for the fans to identify and for the marketing of the item. Not to drive any secondary market value.

Just to be clear, i agree with the rest of what you are saying, but you don't seem to understand how a collectable toy company looks at ways to make a profit, espically a small company.

I disagree. They may have initially started offering variants as a way to gain additional sales. With the success of the DC line (sans variants) it has been proven that minimates sell well enough on their own to go without variants in the cases. Again, they sell well enough to retailers that they don't need variants to make a profit - small company or not.

[pickle]

and i have been put in my place

i did not explain myself right with my rant,and i did not say that it is to drive a secondary market. i meant that knowing that collectors want the whole set and in some cases just the varient, that the retailors will order more cases and increase their own profit. And just by making varients they are aware that there will be a high demand for them in a secondary market if the line is successful.

and i bet if DST distributed the DC line, there would be varients. but less we forget DCD makes these and i am pretty sure DST does not see a profit from them.

ha ha ha. alright now i am being a smart ***. we should start our own thread reideen1313 so we can bicker back and forth and let this get back to spider-man

[Cappy]

Given that we will see more Spider-Man variants, one of them might as well be a revised classic black costume, yes?

Why... we already have one that is pretty much perfect? That's the main point of my argument.

Why? To make the fans happy whilst still keeping to DST's original promise. More happiness in this world is a good thing. Always.

[Dan]

I know that this is hugely unlikely, BUT why not bring out an Ultimate Black Suit Spidey? With a different Spider logo that doesn't meet at the sides and with a purple tint.

Would this keep people happy, Or would you still object to having another version of the suit at all?

[Leoric]

In my opinion you should never value a collectible based on how much other people want it. Instead you should value it based on how much the item personally means to you and that's it. And if currently the figure (such as the original Black Spider-Man) costs more then your personal price, then I say move on it wasn't meant to be and wait for it to go down, if ever. From what I have observed of the evolution of the Minimate production I highly doubt they are ever going to rerelease perfect duplicates of any figures ever again. Like the second Flash in the C3 line. Or the second Spider-Woman or Iceman. Not wanting to say this argument is moot but, well...

And Dan isn't there already another version of the black suit? The new SM3 one?

[Dan]

I meant another comic version, the movie one is completely different.

[Cyc]

Well Ultimate or more correctly modern Bagley Black Costume Spidey (as his later Amazing work featured the same tight look as he was forced to draw Venom more and more, and I question if Ulimate didn't have a complete join of symbols) is one option but the Melee one shows significant visual differences in design of eyes and spider symbol and yet DST still felt it wasn't unique enough to not compete against the existing Black costume mate without further changes.

[minijeff]

I will grab a poker visor for this one...My 2 cents is that I am all for a slightly redone look for it as a re-release.....give it more detailing like the box set one and then toss a grabline on it too and it'll be different from the original and be comic based too....

Jeff of the Minis

[Dan]

I question if Ultimate didn't have a complete join of symbols

I was looking through the graphic novel, and it's actually really hard to tell if they join or not. I think it would look good if they didn't join, a bit like Black Spider-woman's logo.

[Fujis]

Back to the Black Spidey vs. Stealth Iron Man discussion: Spidey shows up way more often than Stealth IM on eBay, in fact, I can't remember the last time I saw one. But there are 3 Black Spidey's up for auction right now.

[Amazing.JL]

^I bought the last Stealth IM about a month ago. The reason that there are more is that Spider-man is a more recognized character by the masses but Stealth IM is mainly recognized by the collector/comic fan. I dropped the ball in not getting more Stealth IM when I had the chance but I was lucky enough to get more Black Spideys. (Hence why there are 3 right now)

[TM2 Dinobot]

Reideen1313> So glad you noticed.

Diamonds are one of the cheapest and most plentiful jems in the world. Debears has the market totally covered on them. There is rarely a diamond mined on this planet that they don't know about, and either buy, steal or kill to get their hands on the mine. They own virtually every diamond in the world. They have warehouses for sub par diamonds they they literally use shovels to move them. They own almost ever diamond and keep them locked up. The reason they dlo this is because since they own every diamond, it's come to them or nothing, and they c an drive the price up however high they want with artificial inflation.

This is not what DST is doing. If they were doing this they'd have a stockpile of Black Spidey's sitting in the back room. They don't. So to say they're making money off of the ones that sell on ebay doesn't make sense.

One last point. Marvel legends had variants, and arguably made them the "in" think to do. Wave 3 unmasked Wolvy at one point was approaching $200. Then they decided to have mercy on the fans that missed him, and re-released him. Not only did he drop, but so did every other variant. Toy Biz dropped a A Bomb. Variants could be re-released any time, any where. And their value plumeted.

Re-Releasing variants is ALWAYS a BAD IDEA!

Yeah, just my $0.02 worth

[Amazing.JL]

^That really ticketed me off and a reason why I stopped collecting Legends. I bought an unmasked Wolvy at one point and found another. I paid a high price for the one I got on ebay and now it's worth near nothing. It really disappointed the hell out of me. This is another reason why I've started to sell some stuff.

[pickle]

i did not know that my opinion would create quite the stir.

i did not say that DST makes money off of the secondary market. What i tried to say was that the quickest way to turn a profit would be to create variants so they could sell the most possible cases when they are first released, and by doing this they are aware that by making variants there will be a high demand for them in the long run. cause and effect. When the new collector sees that some older ones are going for a high price, they will be compelled to purchase more from newer sets. In some way they do benefit from the secondary market, just not a direct profit.

And i am pretty sure the McFarlane sports variants are older than marvel legends.

[infallible]

One last point. Marvel legends had variants, and arguably made them the "in" think to do. Wave 3 unmasked Wolvy at one point was approaching $200. Then they decided to have mercy on the fans that missed him, and re-released him. Not only did he drop, but so did every other variant. Toy Biz dropped a A Bomb. Variants could be re-released any time, any where. And their value plumeted.

I have to ask why this is so bad. So the value of variants on the secondary market went down. Who cares except the scalpers? And no offense to any scalpers, but since when did we care about them anyway? Aren't lower prices and more availablity both good things? Who buys toys as an investment? Anyone that does needs to re-think their strategy.

Frankly, if I were a Marvel Legends buyer, I'd be delighted that they re-released that variant. Even if I did pay $200 for my own unmasked Wolverine, it meant that future variants would now be cheaper. I still win.

I purchased a 3.75" Expanded Universe Mara Jade off of eBay about 7 years ago. I had to pay a premium because it was no longer in stores and hard to find when it was. Should I be upset that Hasbro is releasing a new Mara Jade in a few weeks? Of course not. In the time between then and now, a whole new group of toy buyers has come along, and the new demand for Mara Jade is pretty high.

Now, as I said before, Diamond made their promise not to re-release variants, so they shouldn't do it. But if they hadn't made that promise, then they absolutely should put it back out there. They could re-design it, or leave it as is, doesn't matter. If Diamond and Art Asylum could make a penny of profit off of a re-release, then they should do it.

But I'll finish up by asking again, why is it so bad that the secondary market values of Marvel Legends variants went down?

[wallbreaker2.0]

So you missed out on the black Spidey are you going to mss out on any of the upcoming variants? No of course because if you do you'll have to pay a premium for them in the secondary market and while you're picking up the variant you might as well get the rest of the wave. By releasing variants dst instills a sense of urgency to the collecting of the mates this is good for dst because if you put off buying them long enough you may just decide not to. Not only that but I see it as a loyalty reward I supported marvel minimates in the begining and as a reward the minimates that I purchased have become more valuable. Having said that I sometimes think that dst relies to heavily on variants and other gimmicks by which I mean the quality of marvel minimates is not quite on par with the dcd mates ( I didn't want to have to say that) Don't get me wrong I like variants because it makes it exciting I just wish they could have variants and higher quality mates.

THE FOLLOWING IS BY NO MEANS A DISS PLEASE DO NOT TAKE IT AS SUCH

Oh and if I could speak directly to Infallible your disregard for the long term value of your collectibles is commendible but I woud hazard to guess rare. I don't think there are enough people like you out there to make producing minimates or any other collesctible for that matter profitible . Oh and about buying toys as an investment you make it sound like something foolish I think your attitude would change if you had a mint g1 Optimus Prime I just saw one sell for $230 cdn on ebay what did it cost when it was released $20 my math isn't that good but even I can tell that would have been a good investment.

[Reideen1313]

So you missed out on the black Spidey are you going to mss out on any of the upcoming variants? No of course because if you do you'll have to pay a premium for them in the secondary market and while you're picking up the variant you might as well get the rest of the wave. By releasing variants dst instills a sense of urgency to the collecting of the mates this is good for dst because if you put off buying them long enough you may just decide not to. Not only that but I see it as a loyalty reward I supported marvel minimates in the begining and as a reward the minimates that I purchased have become more valuable.

I miss out on variants simply because either I don't care enough about the character to buy the variant or its a stupid variant. Case in point - Iceman. I own exactly 1 - could have purchased both, don't care enough about the variant to pick it up. (Never saw the Target release, or I'd have gotten that one.) Spider Woman is another. I never really liked the black costume - preferred the red - so I don't own that one. Jean Grey from the X3 line is another - I don't care enough about the character to spend the extra $$ to justify getting a 2nd Hugh Jackman Wolverine. IIRC, I didn't buy the variants from the upcoming Spidey 3 lines either. I'd have had to preorder them sight unseen and by the time I saw them, they were sold out. I'm not real worried about it because I'm not in the hobby to make $ or have every single one - the standard versions work for me on many of the upcoming releases. (Avengers is another where I'm skipping the variant. Don't care about the character. 'Nuff said.) Maybe I'm in the minority in this. Maybe not.

Having said that I sometimes think that dst relies to heavily on variants and other gimmicks by which I mean the quality of marvel minimates is not quite on par with the dcd mates ( I didn't want to have to say that) Don't get me wrong I like variants because it makes it exciting I just wish they could have variants and higher quality mates.

I don't think quality is an issue Marvel vs DCD - breakage & accuracy of paint/tampo application is about even from everything I've seen and read. Tooling - new parts vs reused parts - is a different issue from quality. Tooling is part of the budget for each wave. I'm guessing the Marvel waves have a smaller profit ratio than the DCD waves do, meaning smaller budgets on Marvel characters and less tooling costs to cut into that budget. It probably boils down to where costs are allocated. It is possible that DCD may take on some of the cost for tooling where Marvel does not... who knows?

Oh and about buying toys as an investment you make it sound like something foolish

In today's market, it is very foolish.

I think your attitude would change if you had a mint g1 Optimus Prime I just saw one sell for $230 cdn on ebay what did it cost when it was released $20 my math isn't that good but even I can tell that would have been a good investment.

True - look at it this way.

Same thing happened in the sports card and comic book markets. Sports cards and comic books were produced in much lower numbers in the 50's and 60's than they were in the 90's. People saw prices on Amazing Spidey #1, Detective #1 and Superman #1 and jumped into the speculator market, buying huge quantities of issues and putting them away for little Johnny's college fund. (Commonly referred to speculator boom.) Glow in the dark covers, shiny metallic covers, covers with bullet holes, tri fold covers, limited editions with gold foil, specially numbered editions, etc were all common back then - and people bought them by the box full. Then the speculator bust happened - the bottom fell out of the market. People were not willing to pay $30 for a glow in the dark holofoil cover anymore. Unfortunately for the 500,000 people that purchased said glow in the dark holofoil covered comic book, they were generally worth even less than what the original cover price was. (Don't believe me? Go look in the .25 bins at your LCS and see how many 90's comics are there. Then look at how many 50's and 60's comics are there.)

With that in mind, how many G1 Optimus Primes do you think were made? Whatever number you come up with, I can almost guarantee it won't even be close to the number of Primes being made to support the Transformers movie. Mint G1 Primes are even more rare than just a standard G1 Optimus. Most Primes were ripped out of their boxes Xmas morning and played with until the rubber fell off the wheels. Parts were lost and paint was scratched up. Back then, it was a toy - not a potential 'collectible' as it is today. Fact is, manufacturers produce more figures for today's market than they ever have in the past. Finding a toy that will provide a 1000% return on your investment (like the Prime you mentioned in your example) is extremely difficult in today's world. If that's why you're in this hobby, you're in it for the wrong reason and you'll wind up very broke in the long run.

[pickle]

Oh and about buying toys as an investment you make it sound like something foolish

In today's market, it is very foolish.

yup, you said it. everything is so mass produced (but not the limited stuff of like 500 pieces of course) that there is no investment in modern toys. i have hot wheel collectors go crazy to get cars first thinking it is an investment. the only type of investment (if there can be one) in toys, in my opinion, is vintage toys. (1970's and back)

oh, and it is nice to see we agree on something Reideen1313, and i did enjoy our debate very much.