Spider-Man 4

[Mirymate]

Okay if there's another SM4 thread that this would fit better in, feel free to move it.

Now the latest set of rumors is definitely good news / bad news kind of thing.

First the Rumors have it that John Malkovich is interested in playing the Vulture. Which-Would-So-ROCK!!!! I mean aside from the wings, what about Adrian Toomes doesn't sound like a Malkovich type part?

Now here's where things get... odd... and I how this is just red herring stuff. Anne Hathaway is supposedly in talks to play Felicia Hardy. The twist is that this Felicia isn't the Black Cat, because Sony thinks that's too close to Catwoman and doesn't want to get sued, but rather the Vultress. I'm guessing they'll swap Toomes Vulture for Hardy Sr.'s "the Cat" as her father. This Would Suck. And Suck Hard. And I have a hard time believing that Rami would go for it. But that a major Hollywood studio would think that way... oh absolutely possible.

In other wacky Sony news, the Lizard is out indefinitely. Or at least that's the rumor. Sony has balked at every design they've been shown, thinking the Lizard is just too weird to be accepted by a main stream audience. Not sure where they've been the last few decades, or if they saw SM3 and the guy turning to sand, or the smiling alien Spider-Man, but that's the rumor. Again, it sounds like board room studio logic, but could be another red herring for the Internet age.

[NorthRaider]

Rule Number One, Miry: Next time say the bad news first

I've heard of the Anne Hathaway/Felicia Hardy rumor before, but am quite surprised indeed that they're thinking about not using Black Cat. However as per the dictates of Finagle's Law and Hanlon's Razor, there's always a chance something worse/stupider could happen to this sequel. And I'm not talking Development Hell or Licensing Issues worse, I'm talking "

give Spider-Man a non-cat-themed kickass love interest by giving Mary Jane a super power-up and turning her into Jackpot

" worse. (No, this is NOT canon, thank heavens. I'm just illustrating how much dumber things could get if this keeps up.)

I'm also sad at the lessened likelihood of Movie Lizard, but if there's a real chance at write a good story around Vulture then I say go for it.

[super spider piggy]

Kill off Mary Jane/Gwen Stacey and you have a movie.

[Mirymate]

Rule Number One, Miry: Next time say the bad news first

Will do.

I understand the logic in wanting to use Felicia. The idea of Peter being attracted to someone who could actually share both sides of his life has it's appeal. And I have yet to hear anything confirmed about Dunst being in this movie. That's an easy work around, MJ is off somewhere doing some movie work. Which would add the whole long distance relationship with hot prospect at home kind of angst. And angst and guilt about trying to do the right thing is what drives the heart of every Spider-Man story. So that I understand. (have to have a good girl around in some form, piggy, or else you can't feel guilty about wanting to be with the bad girl)

And o some level, yes I understand that a cat themed, romantically attracted to the hero jewel thief is a pretty blatant Catwoman rip off. I mean, no if's or maybe's about it. Marvel's done some very different things with Felicia than DC has done with Selina, but when you come down to it, even their first names are similar. But that hasn't stopped almost every Spider-Man cartoon from using the character, and WB/DC hasn't said boo about the comics, or the occasional action figure. So aside from some squimishness from the suits, I don't see the problem. Heck, go ahead and use her now, before Nolan gets his version of Catwoman into the next Dark Knight movie. But that's just my opinion. As I don't have millions of dollars to invest in the project, I don't actually get a vote.

[Aapje]

I dunno about the spidey movie's...they're great and all, but the fact that spidey doesn't wisecrack anymore disturbs me. Its like spidey isn't the same anymore

[Twisted Two-Face]

After seeing the trainwreck that was Catwoman, i can't see Felicia being a success in 4, if cast; and why Hathaway?! How does that even make sense??? Movies should just keep away from Cat-themed characters from now if if they aren't directed by Nolan (we know he'd somehow make it work...), IMO.

LOVED the Vulture rumor; heard that one before, and he's one of my favorite Spidey-rogues!! That would be great casting on their part, and if they had to use Hardy AND just limited it to Vulture and Black Cat as the only villains, i could forgive. Toomes is just awesome.

Here's another rumor/confirmation, but take it how you will: A young, toddler-age (2-5 year-old) red-headed boy was just cast for a larger role in 4. Now, i see this in two meanings:

1. What Sony WOULD do; the boy is cast as MJ and Pete's kid. And that would suck. A LOT.

2. What they could (but really shouldn't) do; a young, flash-back Cletus Cassidy.

Quite frankly, i hate both ideas!! I mean, MJ and Pete with a child is just Godsdamn stupid, but after the Venom fiasco (and the news of him getting a spin-off) the movies can't handle Carnage. The guy is a psychopathic murderer who only lives to kill, and Spidey is a "family-series" first; it'll be hard enough adapting a proper script for such a character to fit into the plot. Then Carnage has so much adult backsotry to cover, not to mention his ties to the Symbiote, that continuity would fail. Then there's Sony, who we all know can screw up characters that should be freakin unbelievably cool (VENOM.)!! Both a son and Carnage should be "no-go"s for the movie.

[Trekker 42]

Actually they have set up very intelligently for an Ultimate Carnage inspired version. Remember that Dr. Conners has a piece of Symbiote in his office. He's gonna be the Lizard eventually, studio or no studio. Rami will put him in there. Also Conners will get access to Peter's bloodwork eventually (Dammit he's a doctor). And Ultimate Carnage is what you get if you splice Peter's blood, Conners's blood, and Venom Symbiote Suit. So Ultimate Carnage is a possibility. Also it'll make it easier on the kiddies as Ultimate Carnage is not human in the remotest sense. Not even a host. So if they do Carnage it's probably Ultimate.

[Mirymate]

Okay. I can see the Ult. Carnage thing. BUT Rami has stated in several places hat he want to keep this movie simple. One main villain, one real out of costume dilemma, and a bunch of minor complications. I think it's be either or- Carnage or Vulture, but not both. The Black Cat, whatever they call her, is more a romantic complication than a real villain threat.

And since the studio is playing the bills, Trekker, don't be too sure what will or won't happen. Apparently, Sony wants villains with at least human like faces. And none of the Lizard designs presented could make both Rami and Sony happy. Until that changes, no Lizard. (again if the rumors are true)

And clearly, TTF, you have forgotten the only truly great part of Batman Returns: Michelle Pfifer in a homemade cat suit. That will scrub whatever bad images of Berry's Catwoman from your brain.

I've heard the red haired kid rumor too. But let me give you a third possibility- What if he's an Osborn? Nothing saying Harry or Norman could not have sired a kid. What if Toomes is out to get revenge on everyone who has wronged him, and Norman Osborn is on that list. But Norman is dead, Harry is dead... but wait Harry has a son, little Normie, and Peter now feels doubly responsible to save all he has left of his best friend from a murderous madman's twisted scheme. All the while trying to remain true to his out of town girlfriend while a bad girl in tights is coming on to Spider-Man, and deal with Dr. Conner's demands on his time to complete his course work, Aunt May's crisis de jur, and whatever wackiness JJJ throws into the mix.

See? These things aren't that hard to write. Why does Hollywood feel the need to make it so much more complicated than it needs to be?

[BrobotC]

speaking of the venom movie,any know that the guys who made Zombieland are penned to direct this?awesome!!

[Trekker 42]

And since the studio is playing the bills, Trekker, don't be too sure what will or won't happen. Apparently, Sony wants villains with at least human like faces. And none of the Lizard designs presented could make both Rami and Sony happy. Until that changes, no Lizard. (again if the rumors are true)

Well THAT explains Venom. I mean, I would have been satisfied if he had just kept the freakin MASK on. And to think, it's the studio demanding he was in there AND demanding that Sam screw him up.

Talk about a total and complete failure.

[NorthRaider]

Here's another rumor/confirmation, but take it how you will: A young, toddler-age (2-5 year-old) red-headed boy was just cast for a larger role in 4.

Maybe Walter Kovacs got temporally displaced and wound up in the Marvel universe.

[karamazov80]

Hard to imagine Vulture as the main antagonist in a Spidey film. Kraven would be better.

[minimadman]

speaking of the venom movie,any know that the guys who made Zombieland are penned to direct this?awesome!!

I think you may be a little mistaken. The guys that wrote Zombieland are supposedly writing the Deadpool movie not directing anything. Gary Ross is said to be writing and directing the Venom movie.

Edited December 10, 2009 by minimadman

[drgnrbrn316]

I've an idea. Raimi is likely coming to the end of his run on these movies, along with most of the main cast. If studio interference is as bad as everyone seems to be letting on, then here's what you do:

Put all the villains in the movie.

It will be the most epic trainwreck in movie history, but it will be like the grand finale. You'd have animal themed villains running around in the form of Rhino, Lizard, Vulture, Puma, Black Cat, etc, which would attract Kraven, which would attract brother Chameleon. On top of all of that, you can have the more small time crooks like Shocker, Rocket Racer, Prowler, the Cat, the Black Fox, Hypno Hustler, etc pop in for some throwaway gags. Carnage can show up, because why the hell not. Work in Electro and Hydroman too, heck, its the finale, right? Then, its discovered that its all the work of the Master Planner, who is revealed to be Doc Ock, who wasn't dead all along! As Spidey fights him, Norman "Green Goblin" Osborn swoops in on his glider. He wasn't dead either! And as Spidey stands over the bodies of all his fallen enemies, they vanish to reveal that the whole thing was a trick by Mysterio! Spider-Man punches through his fishbowl and knocks him out, muttering to himself that he's getting too old for all of this crap, before having an orgy with MJ, Gwen, Betty, Felicia, and all the other women from Pete's life over the years.

The movie will be over four hours long, the studio would get whatever it wanted in all that mess, Sam Raimi would get whatever he wanted in there too. Just about everyone who has been begging for [villain name here] would get their wish as well. Plus, the monumental cluster f*ck would set things up nicely for the inevitable reboot, since no one can follow another director and do an honest to goodness sequel anymore.

Or, they could do whatever it is they're doing this time. If they can do a good story, I'm down for Vulture this go around. Not sure how thrilled I am that they're making a new villain out of Felicia, but then again, I'm not sure how accurate these spoilers are. I recall the build up to SM3 had Felicia being Sandman's wife, so who knows.

[karamazov80]

Funny, I was just thinking last night about how if the Avengers franchise succeeds, it is possible that we'll see Iron Patriot and his crew of bad-turned-"good"-guys at some point. I was envisioning a heated discussion between Norman Osbourne (Willem Defoe) and Tony Stark (Downey, Jr.), both in suits in an office somewhere, where Stark refuses to support Norman's crazy idea of doing whatever it is that he is trying to do, and thus sets the Avengers down the path to conflict with the evil, lame doppleganger "Avengers."

Note that I have only read the free comic day comic with Dark Avengers. I think it is a really dumb idea.

[TM2 Dinobot]

Oww...

[NorthRaider]

I've an idea. Raimi is likely coming to the end of his run on these movies, along with most of the main cast. If studio interference is as bad as everyone seems to be letting on, then here's what you do:

*the wackiest Marvel movie pitch yet*

Throw in the so-bad-it's-good 2000s-era Fantastic Four, the so-bad-it's-horrible cast of the Thomas Jane Punisher film (or heck, every Punisher film) and both pseudo-Deadpools from X-Men Origins for that extra wisecracking/Baraka-stabby oomph, then maybe work in the borderline pointless New Avengers, and then we'll talk.

Bonus points if they work in that weird techno version of the Spider-Man theme song from the 90s cartoon too.

I was envisioning a heated discussion between Norman Osbourne (Willem Defoe) and Tony Stark (Downey, Jr.), both in suits in an office somewhere

Seeing that scene in my head gave me fanboy chills for some reason.

[Mirymate]

Bonus points if they work in that weird techno version of the Spider-Man theme song from the 90s cartoon too.

Joe Perry of Aerosmith came up with and performed that.

But being and old guy, I have fond memories of this one.

I was envisioning a heated discussion between Norman Osbourne (Willem Defoe) and Tony Stark (Downey, Jr.), both in suits in an office somewhere

Seeing that scene in my head gave me fanboy chills for some reason.

Well unless Disney can pry the rights from Sony with a big money crowbar, that's not going happen. Marvel was desparate for cash when they sold Sony the film rights to all thing Spider-Man with no expiration date attached. If Marvel/Disney wants to the rights back, they are going to have to pay through the nose for them. Or else Sony is going to have to have a Spider-film completely, utterly bomb enough to convince them there's no more money to be made with the liscense. So basically, either Disney/Marvel pays Sony serveral hundred millions of dollars to get Spidey back, or we have to sit through a couple of Spider-movies WORSE than three thought of being. Otherwise the idea of Downey confronting Defoe will remain a fanboy pipe dream.

Of course, the idea of a live action Avengers movie was long considered a fanboy pipe dream too, so keep dreamin' I say.

[NorthRaider]

Sigh.

Bonus points if they work in that weird techno version of the Spider-Man theme song from the 90s cartoon too.

Joe Perry of Aerosmith came up with and performed that.

Oddly the guitar riffs from that version have long faded from my nostalgia filter, so all I remembered was the creepy robotic voice part.

Wow, I miss this show. Though in hindsight the continuity deviations involving Felicia and Hydro-Man confused the hell out of me even as a kid.

[drgnrbrn316]

Wow, I miss this show. Though in hindsight the continuity deviations involving Felicia and Hydro-Man confused the hell out of me even as a kid.

That show was actually my "introduction" to the character (I had been aware of his existence, but never followed comics until well after the show had concluded)

Imagine my surprise when I discovered:

* Hobgoblin was a copy of the Green Goblin, and not the other way around.

* Kraven the Hunter was a bad guy.

* Felicia Hardy didn't have any sort of history with Morbius.

* Mary Jane didn't have any sort of history with Hydroman.

* The Clone Saga wasn't an alternate universe story, nor did it focus on clones of MJ and Hydroman.

* Secret Wars didn't revolve around Spidey.

* Electro wasn't the Red Skull's son.

Of course, with all those discrepancies, the show did manage to capture the spirit of a lot of the Spideyverse. I just wish that America could get the show in its entirety released on DVD/Blu Ray/something. Maybe we can with the Disney deal.

But, yeah, we probably won't see too much in the way of crossover between the Spider-Man movies and the rest of the Marvel movies. Even if the Spider-Man franchise starts to bomb, Sony can just toss in a reboot and keep going. Unless Disney/Marvel can cut a pretty big check, I doubt Sony is going to let go of one of Marvel's biggest, most marketable characters.

[NorthRaider]

Wow, all this talk about the Spider-Man movies and the old cartoon suddenly got me thinking about something:

Gwen Stacy. Seeing as her death in the comics was both highly iconic and extremely traumatic (both to Spider-Man himself and to readers then, I imagine), I just realized how much current Spider-media seems to shy away from using her to any real capacity. The Spectacular Spider-Man is the only exception I've seen so far, and they've had to reinvent Gwen from being a sweet girl-next-door type to a competent lovable-geek-girl type. And there's still some doubt cast over whether the series will actually *do something* to her or what.

[battlecat]

The Spectacular Spider-Man is the only exception I've seen so far, and they've had to reinvent Gwen from being a sweet girl-next-door type to a competent lovable-geek-girl type. And there's still some doubt cast over whether the series will actually *do something* to her or what.

She was kind of a nerd in the comics too, she was a science major like Peter. She was just a hot '60s go-go nerd.

Isn't there doubt the series will be back at all, at the moment? Last I heard it was up in the air, but that was a while back...

[Mirymate]

The series is still up in the air. Odd for the season 2 finale were good, depsite a technical glitch. They are looking at DVD sales over Christmas. But even if they decided right now to go forward, it would be next fall before anything new could be produced.

The problem with adding Gwen to any animated show is that you know going in she's suppossed to die. If Spectacular keeps going say 3 more seasons, then near then end of the 4th season, a Goblin will cause her death. Keep her around as a main character in the movie series, and a Goblin will have to kill her. And while for adults and teens thats good drama, for say 6 year olds that's traumatic. If you want to keep things kid friendly, which if you don't you get toy sales like the Wolverine movie, they can't really go there.

So Gwen gets eft out a lot.

[NorthRaider]

The problem with adding Gwen to any animated show is that you know going in she's supposed to die. If Spectacular keeps going say 3 more seasons, then near then end of the 4th season, a Goblin will cause her death. Keep her around as a main character in the movie series, and a Goblin will have to kill her. And while for adults and teens that's good drama, for say 6 year olds that's traumatic. If you want to keep things kid friendly, which if you don't you get toy sales like the Wolverine movie, they can't really go there.

From TV Tropes:

Word Of God is that as long as the kid-friendly TV series is running, Gwen Stacy will not die. Here's the caveat: Greg Weisman's ultimate plan is for the series to go five seasons, and then branch off into some DTVs that (though they'll skew slightly older) will still be canon. Once the DTVs happen, all bets are off

.

Again, I'm pointing all this out on the capacity of the average moviegoer/TV-watcher/whathaveyou who, unlike a lot of guys on this board, isn't that well-versed in years of established comic continuity and thus has to digest narrative elements introduced in any work at the same rate as any other Average Joe. I'm just trying to make sense of why a character like Gwen Stacy gets underused in a lot of Spider-Man adaptations when elsewhere Mr. Freeze can be a pun-spouting guy in bunny slippers and Cyclops can get vaporized out of existence (though I guess that's more Hollywood-induced stupidity than bold scriptwriting).

Edited December 11, 2009 by NorthRaider

[drgnrbrn316]

Dang it, stop posting TV Tropes links!