Minimates at C2E2

[Lobsterman]

Well come on, it's just as fruitless to go on a screed about how how "you don't buy" Chuck's explanations about the cost of manufacturing a product he knows everything about and you don't. I could come up with just as many reasons why I do buy it: on your specific example, the tampos were, with the exception of the face, limited to one color – black. Granted they were on every surface, but it was just one color, the cheapest and most plentifully-available ink color, with no need to mix custom inks and match to color swatches (a process with an entirely separate prototype approval process), and no need to register to other imprints. Tampos on the mates of today tend to be multiple color imprints, and tend to have smaller areas registered to hairline details. That's multiple passes on a single-color press, or one pass on a multi-color press, which is necessarily more expensive either way.

And all of that is based on my knowledge of commercial document printing, which may or may not correspond in any way to tampographic printing on toys, and may or may not, therefore, be completely moot.

Perhaps the focus on tampos early in the line was a financial blunder that almost sunk the ship (which would bear out by the drought of Minimates a few years ago), and required them to reevaluate how they could produce them more cost-effectively. Maybe the upfront cost of tooling a die and hand painting parts really is cheaper than printing on plastic (which would bear out by the overwhelming majority of toys being sculpt-and-paint rather than printed). I just don't know, because I'm not in the toy manufacturing business.

All I was trying to get at is this: it's frustrating to percieve that quality has gone down on Minimates, but the complexity of these things has increased enormously since the first few waves. If you're not satisfied, don't buy them. But it's pointless to talk about precisely how they're cocking things up unless you actually know something about the manufacturing business.

And if you do have that knowledge, by all means, you have my apologies, and I'll hold my tongue next time.

[Punisher]

But how is making a mold (who knows how expensive the mold itself is) as well as the plastic for the mold any cheaper? Each new part is a new piece of the process, whereas the paint isn't specifically made.

[drgnrbrn316]

Maybe in the short term, it costs more to make a new mold than it does to paint a simple design, but when you factor in the eventual reuse of the mold, the price is driven down in the long run.

That first Tony Stark hair piece and New X-Men Phoenix hair piece probably paid for a factory.

I can see how it would be costly for the paint process too. You've got to figure that each part goes through the machine 4 times so that each surface can be sprayed with paint. When you add multiple colors, it probably has to go through each time for each color. Look at the horrible Friends & Foes Spidey. Those webs wouldn't be bleeding through his face if he wasn't going through the machine multiple times for each color. There wouldn't be any webs there if they only ran him through once.

Granted, I have no knowledge of the manufacturing process, this is all guess work on my part.

[Ivan]

In the comments of the OAFE panel rundown article Rustin Parr, the author, clarifies:

The Tampo-vs-Sculpting thing is a bit surprising but the point he was driving home was that each color is a separate Tampo and each Tampo is done by hand. So, and this is me talking, imagine the labor cost with one paint wash on sculpted Thing, versus having to line up the the Tampo rock paint on each body piece by hand for each figure.

(emphasis mine)

That really surprised me. I'd have thought the tampo process could be mechanized on most vanilla Minimate body parts, but I guess not. There was a video some time ago that showed that showed Lego Stormtrooper helmets being printed and it was all automated. (

) I figured the DST factory was similar, but I guess scale plays a more important factor. DST isn't close to Lego production levels and the upfront costs would be massive. As an aside, I'd love to see a photo from the factory with a tub full of identical Minimate torsos.

I've always heard the tooling for a sculpted part is the most expensive part of the process. But if you can reuse a tool and tampo labor costs go up... maybe it tips the scales?

[Lobsterman]

Wow. I had no idea the tampos were done by hand. So they're basically rubber-stamped like in the video, only the robot arm is actually some guy (or girl, or little kid) having to line up the template each time, check the ink density, probably clean the screen or stamp every few and reapply ink... They must burn through 20% of the blanks just on wastage.

It would certainly explain why they would cut back on the number of application surfaces...

I always wonder about that "tooling is the most expensive part of the process" conventional wisdom. The way toys are made these days is much different (and more complex) than two, three decades ago. It makes me wonder if it's an apples-to-oranges comparison: tooling might have been the expensive part back in the days of 5-POA figures with minimal paint apps, but compared to the labor cost of assembling contemporary figures with thirty or forty moving parts and several colors plus a wash (or hand-applying tampos, for that matter), I wonder if it is anymore. No doubt it's expensive, but is it still the budget-breaker?

[stack32]

I always wonder about that "tooling is the most expensive part of the process" conventional wisdom. The way toys are made these days is much different (and more complex) than two, three decades ago. It makes me wonder if it's an apples-to-oranges comparison: tooling might have been the expensive part back in the days of 5-POA figures with minimal paint apps, but compared to the labor cost of assembling contemporary figures with thirty or forty moving parts and several colors plus a wash (or hand-applying tampos, for that matter), I wonder if it is anymore. No doubt it's expensive, but is it still the budget-breaker?

Given the amount of sculpt reuse by other companies (see Mattel) it seems like tooling must still be a major driver of costs. It would be interesting to see the breakdown though.

However much tampos cost, they really shouldn't be simplifying Spider-Man like they have lately. I'll buy variants with little complaint, but it's hard to stomach when they look so cheap.

[buttheadsmate]

If you're not satisfied, don't buy them.

That is ,unfortunately, an option I am considering.

Whilst my knowledge of tampo-printing is limited ,I do grasp the principles of the process . The dreadful Friends & Foes' Spider-Man is perhaps the most telling example of "When Minimates Go Wrong" http://www.minimatedatabase.com/figure.php?i=932&n=Battle+Ravaged+Spider-Man * & you can clearly see that whilst each colour(ink/dye) is applied in a sequence it is critical that the correct sequence is selected . I would almost guarantee that the black was applied first then the white & flesh colours were selected next. Unfortunately the opacity of the flesh & white ink/dyes were insufficient to cover the previously printed black ....hence the criminally poor result. What most of us consider to be printing ,lithography, involves using mainly 4 colours of ink which are translucent.... screen printing inks are opaque & so I assume are tampo inks. I could elaborate but I hope I've already made the point. Battle-Ravaged Spidey had his head printed three times & I'll stake that the black ink either failed to dry properly or had a reaction to the subsequent overprinted flesh & white.

All of my waffle above would imply that Battle -Ravaged Spidey went through far more processes than the Carnage example that my friend, youbastards, used . One colour on all parts of a Minimate is laborious ,three colours on some parts of a Minimate is much more laborious.......far more perhaps than just three times as laborious if you follow my logic

My conclusion for what it's worth is that Chuck is telling it like it is when it comes to the expense of multi-tampo printing & I've said elsewhere that he is genuinely passionate about his product & of course wants it to be viable . What I do fail to understand is his refusal to accept that there is a QC problem ,if he were to acknowledge it I'd continue to remain patient & wait for things to get a lot better. There ARE also new plastics being used which conform to new legislation that the US government have belatedly brought into line with EU standards that have been in place for years. These plastics will also no doubt be giving problems as well....new plastics that may well be incompatible with inks that have been used before. I understand his (DST's)problems but living in denial isn't helping.

*My thanks to Ivan in advance for the pictures .