SPOILER The Dark Knight

[Trekker 42]

I agree with Luke on the second question That is definetly the impression I got. On the first question Scarecrow wasn't trying to Dole out Vigilante justice he was in the middle of discussing a drug deal that went wrong apparently his drug ( I can't remember what it's called) doesn't sell well as a recreational drug. The Batmen try to break it up and fail miserably and then the real Bat Man shows up and shows everybody what's what and who's who.

It's called Fear Toxin. Duh.

[wallbreaker2.0]

I agree with Luke on the second question That is definetly the impression I got. On the first question Scarecrow wasn't trying to Dole out Vigilante justice he was in the middle of discussing a drug deal that went wrong apparently his drug ( I can't remember what it's called) doesn't sell well as a recreational drug. The Batmen try to break it up and fail miserably and then the real Bat Man shows up and shows everybody what's what and who's who.

It's called Fear Toxin. Duh.

Why ya gotta be "that guy" Trekker

[TBT!]

Ok saw this today and I'm realy glad I've been paying ti no attention... I loved this movie.

they got (almost everything right). It was a cool (movie) batverse thrill ride!!

I do however have 2 nit picks, both are probably subjective and based off taste.

The first was (and I'll probably get stoned for saying it but) the joker, Ledger did nuts and creepy very well but to me the Joker needed more (and this is going to sound cheesy but...) comedic zing... still awesomely creepy but was more fidgity than the flambouant traits of the background the Joker is supposed to have. I guess we could chalk that up to movie origins etc. This is probably just my opinion and subjective but I would have prefered him to be a little more ''larger than life''.

The bigger thing that niggled... is the end where Bats launches Himself/Dent/Gordon's kid off the edge of the building he let Dent/twoface fall to his death, as it was he that launced him off the building it was he that effectively killed him.... to me that's a HUGE Batman no no, There is one rule he doesn't break... that's taking a life. I know he had a lot to do save everyone but a) he was off camera so it could be fixed easily and he's the frikin Batman so we would go with it

It would have made more sense to me to have had it so that the kid was still on the building (One less thing to worry about), Dent is saved by Bat's from the fall - perhaps a brief exchange about fate/duality then 2-face flips a coin gets the bad side and lets go/fall to his death!

Don't get me wrong it was a stunning film and one I intend to see again soon, but everyone got an opinion right

T.

[Trekker 42]

The bigger thing that niggled... is the end where Bats launches Himself/Dent/Gordon's kid off the edge of the building he let Dent/twoface fall to his death, as it was he that launced him off the building it was he that effectively killed him.... to me that's a HUGE Batman no no, There is one rule he doesn't break... that's taking a life. I know he had a lot to do save everyone but a) he was off camera so it could be fixed easily and he's the frikin Batman so we would go with it

It would have made more sense to me to have had it so that the kid was still on the building (One less thing to worry about), Dent is saved by Bat's from the fall - perhaps a brief exchange about fate/duality then 2-face flips a coin gets the bad side and lets go/fall to his death!

T.

Well... at that point it was crazy burned guy who wanted to die or the kid. Which did you think Batman would choose? Plus it proved Joker right: Batman would break his one rule before the end. I think Two-Face's death was yet another way to prove that Joker really did win.

I DO think Two-Face was screwed over though. I wanted him to get his own movie

I agree with Luke on the second question That is definetly the impression I got. On the first question Scarecrow wasn't trying to Dole out Vigilante justice he was in the middle of discussing a drug deal that went wrong apparently his drug ( I can't remember what it's called) doesn't sell well as a recreational drug. The Batmen try to break it up and fail miserably and then the real Bat Man shows up and shows everybody what's what and who's who.

It's called Fear Toxin. Duh.

Why ya gotta be "that guy" Trekker

Because I can be. :biggrin:

Oh, and you forgot a question mark.

[TBT!]

Well... at that point it was crazy burned guy who wanted to die or the kid. Which did you think Batman would choose? Plus it proved Joker right: Batman would break his one rule before the end. I think Two-Face's death was yet another way to prove that Joker really did win.

I DO think Two-Face was screwed over though. I wanted him to get his own movie

The point is Batman would have weighed it up B4 doing it and would not do it if he didn't believe he would kill one, he'd have found another way... he's the frikin Batman!!!

Besides your opinion is going to be discarded "crazy burned guy" indeed!

T.

[cornflakes]

I don't remember if it's been said on this board already, but it is possible Two-Face isn't dead. They pretty much had to bury Harvey Dent to give him the heroes burial that cemented his role in Gotham, but we never even see a coffin. With comic book deaths, and their high rate of "I was never really dead!" reveals, I'd say there's still a good chance Two-Face is around.

[Trekker 42]

Well... at that point it was crazy burned guy who wanted to die or the kid. Which did you think Batman would choose? Plus it proved Joker right: Batman would break his one rule before the end. I think Two-Face's death was yet another way to prove that Joker really did win.

I DO think Two-Face was screwed over though. I wanted him to get his own movie

The point is Batman would have weighed it up B4 doing it and would not do it if he didn't believe he would kill one, he'd have found another way... he's the frikin Batman!!!

Besides your opinion is going to be discarded "crazy burned guy" indeed!

T.

He had three seconds to decide and he was shot. Seriously, it was the suicidal homicidal maniac or the sweet innocent child. Had Batman not acted, there would hve been more blood on his hands than a man who was tortured already. Besides, Two-face would not have wanted to live that way for long. Poor guy.

And he may not be dead. The common theory is that the fall was about as much as Maroni fell when Batman was interrogating him on the Joker's whereabouts and Maroni survived.

If he is dead, perhaps Batman didn't think the fall would kill him but it did anyway. I don't think the fall alone would have killed him. It was a combonation of the incredible pain from his burns, the physical damage from the burns, emotional turmoil over Rachel's death, survivor's guilt, the lack of the will to live, and a three story fall that killed him.

Did anyone hear what was said by Joker or gordon when Gordon returned from the dead and arrested Joker? I couldn't hear over the people applauding (myself included) at that moment. (probably my favorite in the film. I really thought Gordon was dead. Logic didn't set in.)

[TBT!]

I really thought Gordon was dead. Logic didn't set in.)

Strike two to your bat credibility...

As I said it's kind of subjective but as a long time Bat reader I feel he wouldn't have done that without knowing he would save both. The not taking life thing is as much a part of the character as the pointy ears.

T.

[Nestlé]

I really thought Gordon was dead. Logic didn't set in.)

Strike two to your bat credibility...

As I said it's kind of subjective but as a long time Bat reader I feel he wouldn't have done that without knowing he would save both. The not taking life thing is as much a part of the character as the pointy ears.

T.

I actually have to stand with TBT on this one.

Infinite Crisis (in comics) pretty much happened because 1 of the "big 3" killed someone and Batman couldn't relate in any way. (Sure, there was more to it than that, but it definetly proves a point)

Batman would never knock him off that ledge if it would kill him. Even with only 3 seconds to decide.

[Alpheon]

Did anyone hear what was said by Joker or gordon when Gordon returned from the dead and arrested Joker? I couldn't hear over the people applauding (myself included) at that moment. (probably my favorite in the film. I really thought Gordon was dead. Logic didn't set in.)

If it makes you feel any better, I thought he was dead too. The only thing that sort of "tipped me off" was the fact that Dent said "Gordon's gone, Rachel. ...He's gone." As opposed to "he's dead."

As to what they said:

*the metallic click of the shotgun*

Joker: "Awww...! *disappointed* Can you just--just give me one min--!"

Gordon: "Gotcha, you son of a bitch."

[karamazov80]

I just saw the movie. It was pretty good, but I felt bad when I left the theater. Sort of like a more muted version of the feeling that I had after watching Requiem for a Dream. Kind of a gloomy-guss of a movie. The positive note of "Batman is a good person who does what he has to to protect the city" scarcely overshadows all the bad, depressing shit that went on in that one. Ultimately though, I think this is definitely Nolan's second best movie--after his masterpiece Memento, of course.

I don't think Harv is dead (pretty sure I saw him breathing as Bats hovered over his body at the end--he wouldn't necessarily die from that height). Eckhardt is, in my opinion, a better Harvey Dent than Tommy Lee Jones, but I'm not sure that he is better than the great Billy Dee Williams. I am glad that they didn't integrate the stupid Loeb storyline about

Harvey's wife being a killer

. . .

I knew Gordon wasn't dead. How could anyone have honestly thought that he was dead? That would almost be as stupid as having a movie where Superman had a son. Ridiculous.

I think the movie would have been more realistic if one of the two boats blew the other one up. I was actually expecting the "good" boat to push the button first--but that Joker would have rigged it so that they blew themselves up. But. . .I guess if that had happened, then the Joker would have won, which would have made the movie even more of a downer.

Heath Ledger was pretty freakin' awesome as a better Joker than I ever imagined, and I've been a Batman freak since I was 2 years old, so I know me some Joker. He's even better than Hamil's Joker, which is a damn fine Joker.

Also, I really like the Bat-growl. When he did it in Begins to the crooked cop hanging upside down, it made me very happy. Batman is all about theatrics and instilling fear, and having a guttural growl really contributes to it, IMO.

So, good movie, not sure I want to see it again, but I probably will just for Ledger's performance. Wowzers he was good.

Edited July 23, 2008 by karamazov80

[Trekker 42]

I am glad that they didn't integrate the stupid Loeb storyline about

Harvey's wife being a killer

. . .

Ah... you're a Gildaist. I really believe she didn't do any of it. Her "confession" was a delusion meant to confuse readers because she herself was confused. She wasn't it, but I won't say who is in case someone who is reading this hasn't read The Long Halloween. And if you haven't read the Long Halloween, you haven't truly experienced the medium of crime comics. So go read it.

[karamazov80]

Admittedly, I haven't read Long Halloween in a couple years, but

I was pretty sure that there were 2 assassins, and there was really no ambiguity about it

. Was something written after this storyline that contradicts this? And what the hell is a "Gildaist?"

[Joe Hill]

I thought the movie was great! Some points I found interesting:

*I liked all the characters, as they were all flawed in some manner. But for me, while The Joker and Two-Face obviously stole the show... I thought Commissioner Gordon was excellent! Oldman really plays the character perfectly.

*The villains in this movie were so well done, I am amazed they pulled it off. The Joker actually scared me. I was nervous to see what he was going to do next (slice open a mouth, blow up a hospital, shoot himself in the head, etc). Two-Face was great too! Awesome how they tied in Rachel to his backstory... it really gave the character his drive to kill.

*Many complain about Batman deep voice.... but I think it is necessary. Bruce Wayne's natural playboy voice is not very intimidating. Plus it helps to disguise one of the most well known men in the world.

*I prefer Maggie Gyllenhaal's Rachel. She was still tough and sweet, but I felt she had more of a presence. Especially in the idea of being an Assistant District Attorney. No offense to Katie Holmes, I think she is a fine actress... she just never struck me as the Assistant DA. It was horrible the way she died, but necessary to solidify The Dark Knight.

*I don't think Two-Face is dead. I think once the public discovers Harvey Dent is an insane killer, things will go wrong. Their "white knight" will be a facade. I also don't think they should recast The Joker. Heath Ledger made his mark, and it cannot be replaced. Have The Joker stay locked up in Arkham.

All in all, I will likely see it again. With Iron Man and The Dark Knight, plus the vastly improved Incredible Hulk... this is the best comic-movie year ever!

[karamazov80]

With Iron Man and The Dark Knight, plus the vastly improved Incredible Hulk... this is the best comic-movie year ever!

Agreed. Enjoy it before it all goes sour (as things always must). . .and don't forget Hellboy!

[MiniFiend UK]

You could add Wanted to that list as its based on a Mark Miller miniseries.

I agree this summer movie season has been a good one for comic fans.

[Trekker 42]

Admittedly, I haven't read Long Halloween in a couple years, but

I was pretty sure that there were 2 assassins, and there was really no ambiguity about it

. Was something written after this storyline that contradicts this? And what the hell is a "Gildaist?"

Someone who believes Gilda was in fact, Holiday.

And thee was a bit of ambiguity being that it makes no sense for Gilda to be holiday. I found a website that helps explain it from a, well, you know who Holiday was so I'm not going to say, and a Gildaist view. The not Gildaist view made complete sense. And when Two-Face said there were two, I believe he was speaking of himself.

Edited July 24, 2008 by Trekker 42

[JulesLuvsShinzon]

This movie didn't just live up to the hype, it transcended it. Totally excellent in every respect.

Ledger and Oldman rocked! Ledger totally inhabited his role and Oldman so immersed himself in Commisioner Gordon that I didn't even frickin' recognise him!

Edited July 25, 2008 by JulesLuvsShinzon

[handsomedevil]

The movie was good overall, but I absolutely HATE Christian Bale's "Bat-growl" voice when he is Batman. It is so over-the-top that it ruins the character for me and I'm a huuuuge Batman fan.

I just saw this today:

Article on the "Bat-growl"

...guess I'm not the only one!

[TBT!]

The movie was good overall, but I absolutely HATE Christian Bale's "Bat-growl" voice when he is Batman. It is so over-the-top that it ruins the character for me and I'm a huuuuge Batman fan.

I just saw this today:

Article on the "Bat-growl"

...guess I'm not the only one!

Yeah... Nonsense... He's supposed to be growly, has been that way for decades in comics.

How scary would the batman be if he sounded like a fluffy socialite?

T.

[Alpheon]

The other thing was that the nose-piece part of the cowl is actually closed. On many occasions, he sounds like a growly mouth-breather (which is, unfortunately, what he was). Especially at the end of the movie, you see him keeping his mouth open seemingly unnecessarily, but upon seeing it again, I realized he simply can't breathe.

[battlecat]

Little late to the game, but I finally saw this a few days ago and read through the thread, thought I'd add a couple thoughts...

re: Dent's death, I didn't take it as Batman "killing" him at all. These movies are trying really hard to set this in a mostly "real" world, so you've got a guy who was shot, blacked out, came to to see Dent in mid-coin flip with a gun to a kid's head... his only real option was to rush the guy and try to grab the gun. Unlike in the comics, where time slows to a crawl during a fight and the character can make an informed decision via internal monologue, Wayne had basically no time to think anything out. We know he has the fast ninja reaction times, but he can still make mistakes about the consequences of those reactions (ie. jumping out the window after Rachel, even though he had no real plan to save her -- still not sure how his cape flapping about a bit kept them from dying in that fall, or did I miss something?).

Anyway, so he rushed Dent, probably tried to push the kid out of the way, but Dent kept his hold and the three of them went over -- if he's gonna save one it's going to be the innocent. Also we know from Batman Begins, that this Batman sees a difference between outright killing for revenge, and "not saving" a villain that's put himself in harm's way, like Ra's on the crashing train. After the first movie, I was more surprised to see him save the Joker than "let" Dent fall. He even shot those arm-blade things at the Joker's head, which is a pretty lethal move, so he's clearly willing to risk his opponent's death in a fight if it saves innocent lives.

re: Dent really being alive, I don't think so, and I hope not. First, if he hadn't died falling off the building, I don't think he'd have lasted long -- hard to fight infection what with the having-no-face thing Second, this movie proved to me that you can "Venom" a bad guy (ie. stick him in the back-end of the movie to support the main bad guy's arc) and actually have it work. I went into TDK thinking Two-Face would be set up for his own sequel, but even in his short screen time I could tell a whole movie of coin-flipping would get old fast, so I think they came up with the perfect solution.

re: the Batman growl, I only find it weird when he's just hanging out with Gordon. Like it works for intimidating crooks with brief statements, but in full-on conversations not so much. The weirder thing about Batman is that even when he's in a rush he takes the time to put black makeup around his eyes, under the mask. It makes me laugh to think of the Joker holding everyone hostage while Wayne sits there with a hand mirror and a mascara pencil or something...

Also someone mentioned Poison Ivy a while back -- I could maybe see it working, if they ignored the being green and mind-controlling plants, and did her more as botonist psycho using plant-based poisons, like a bio-terrorist almost. Maybe not a main villain, but they could throw her into the mix. Also, Joel Schumacher ruined the original Batman series, not Poison Ivy or Robin specifically. He's the man that turned Gotham into neon camp. But yeah, a 30-year-old Robin makes about as much sense as batsuit nipples.

[Trekker 42]

Anyway, so he rushed Dent, probably tried to push the kid out of the way, but Dent kept his hold and the three of them went over -- if he's gonna save one it's going to be the innocent. Also we know from Batman Begins, that this Batman sees a difference between outright killing for revenge, and "not saving" a villain that's put himself in harm's way, like Ra's on the crashing train. After the first movie, I was more surprised to see him save the Joker than "let" Dent fall. He even shot those arm-blade things at the Joker's head, which is a pretty lethal move, so he's clearly willing to risk his opponent's death in a fight if it saves innocent lives.

That's what I've been trying to tell these people, but they keep refuting me. Look, in the real world, would a costumed super hero stand by and watch a kid get shot in the head when he could stop it? NO! And that's what Nolan is trying to give us: The real world with Batman in it. So him tackling Dent off of a building makes sense here.

And Dent is dead. I saw a book in Borders that was the shooting script of The Dark Knight about five minutes after I gotout of the IMAX showing of it and I flipped to the scene with the Two-Face confrontation and it said he was dead in the script. So I'll believe he's dead.

[Trekker 42]

And now we have the final absolute truth about Two-Face's fate.

Here's the final word.

[McDurg]

Oh phoo, that sucks.

I already knew he was dead when it happened in the film, that is why Batman was saying make the call, he was the one who killed Dent

Oh well, and it's a damn shame Ledger isn't around anymore. He nailed the Jokers character, and I doubt Nolan is going to use Joker again. I doubt they'll find somebody as good as he was.

I'm hoping they drop Riddler, and use Blackmask as the villain, since Nolan takes the more realistic approach, I think that would do pretty good. Although it'd be great to see people like Clayface, or Bane, they just aren't realistic enough.