dj87 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Promise I was only playing with ya Shanester! You're a good egg... and I know what you were saying, honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanester Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Its all good! I dish it out, so I gotta be able to take it, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karamazov80 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I can, with hindsight, recognize that ROTJ is flawed in many ways. Solo's character in particular does bug me now. But, I do still love the film in many ways and can enjoy watching it. Is part of that nostalgia? Of course--disclaimer, I was born in '80, and actually did see Jedi in the theaters even though I was scared for large chunks and watched the little image the window by the projection booth instead of the screen . But I do think ROTJ, on objective merits, is still significantly better than any of the prequels. I think the earlier point about Jar Jar is right--Lucas just got more and more out of touch as time went on. But personally, I don't think he was so far removed from what good storytelling was in '83 that Jedi doesn't succeed as a pretty solid, entertaining film, if not nearly as great as its two predecessors. However, this does not make me more of a SW fan. No, it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM2 Dinobot Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Well, lets look for a moment. In '76, Lucas was a Hollywood outsider. he cast other outsiders his own age(ish). Sir Alec Guenniss was almost the only seasoned actor on the set. Fast forward 20 years, and now Lucas is Hollywood, but he still treats everything like he is fighting the system, forgetting he is the system. He still casts people that are young when he has lost touch with them, and he has run off the people brave enough to banter with him, and he is now too powerful for anyone to tell him something is a bad idea. I read this really interesting article on how his ex-wife actually shaped Star Wars, and proposed that without her is how we ended up with... what we ended up with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanester Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Actually, a lot of the actors were "seasoned", just not well known in the US. Guinness for sure, but what about Grand Moff Tarkin? Never heard of Peter Cushing? Hammer Horror fans like myself, would be appauled. David Prowse had done more before Star Wars than either Guinness or Cushing, probably. Even Drewe Henley had done quite a bit before 1977. Just very little known to US audiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karamazov80 Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I have heard of him not appreciating constructive criticism, though, and have seen some behind the scenes stuff recently that seems to reinforce it (when he has a terrible idea but no one says a peep about it). He strikes me as an artist that no longer has that hunger and need to express himself that he had at an earlier age. And his edge has been dulled by fame and money. If you are content, driven by money primarily, and are unwilling to take and encourage constructive criticism or to engage in the kind of self-reflection that some other artists are able to do at an older age (like Spielberg seems to do for example), then I think that's a recipe for disaster. To some extent, I think that happened with Metallica into the 1990s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterPL Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I think the earlier point about Jar Jar is right--Lucas just got more and more out of touch as time went on. But personally, I don't think he was so far removed from what good storytelling was in '83 that Jedi doesn't succeed as a pretty solid, entertaining film, if not nearly as great as its two predecessors. I have to give credit to Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan (and probably Irvin Kershner) for giving Lucas and ROTJ the launch pad that was The Empire Strikes Back. If it hadn't been for the way they set it up, there wouldn't have been as many butts in the seats in '83. The prequels, however, were launched backwards (in so many ways) from Lucas' first shot-from-the-hip effort. It's no coincidence that the closer the prequels got to the OT, the better they were received. I was always very intrigued by "The Clone Wars" ever since Obi Wan uttered the words to Luke. Same here but I'm still baffled as to why the Clone WarS is plural. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM2 Dinobot Posted September 20, 2012 Author Share Posted September 20, 2012 Because it was a throw away line meant to inspire the imagination, never intended to be explored in depth. Until the money called loud enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 It's no coincidence that the closer the prequels got to the OT, the better they were received. That's part of why I feel like the PT just didn't go through as many edits as it should have. I really enjoyed ROTS. Great flick and nice segue into the OT, imo. I thought Grievous was a completely bad-ass villain that should have been featured in the other films. (And the actors just generally seem a lot more comfortable, but that's something different.) It seems to me that Lucas and Co. were honing and fine-tuning the PT up until the end and didn't really hit it until ROTS, by then too late for the other two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
undeadpool Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Because it was a throw away line meant to inspire the imagination, never intended to be explored in depth. Until the money called loud enough. im so glad the money called loud enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterPL Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 The only three aspects I collect out of SW (to keep my sanity) are Biker Scouts, Boba Fett and Slave Leia, all of which are plentiful in Jedi. I loved the incomplete Death Star, so menacing. Yes, there are some questionable parts, the pacing of the scenes, and Ewoks. Oh jeeze, the Ewoks. Apocalypse Endor please. As for Han Solo, PL, I see it as a maturing of the character. He went from having nothing to live for but himself to finding a greater purpose in life. Like Flynn Rider in Tangled. But I can understand your points. I remember the first time I saw an image of the Death Star from ROTJ. At first I thought it was a battle-damaged Death Star under repairs. I remember thinking, "They're rebuilding it?!" It awed me but only because it was like revisiting the original movie and it while it was the Special Editions that cemented the notion for me that MORE Star Wars is not always GOOD Star Wars, elements of ROTJ paved the way. I'm a huge fan of the Scout Trooper look but it's a terrible helmet design for riding a bike that goes 200 MPH. It's nothing but an air brake. Troops must have strong necks! Still my favorite armor, though. I don't mind suspending my disbelief for that suit 'cuz it's friggin' cool. However, Fett is another reason ROTJ disappointed. Less is apparently more when it comes to this guy. I really wanted Boba to bring it but he ended up getting one of the worst deaths ever filmed. He deserved better but he ended up getting Kirk'd. I wish Lucas could have gone with Wookiees instead of Ewoks but I understand that little people are easier to cast than tall people. Maybe someone will splice ROTS with ROTJ for a furry finale! Love the Flynn Rider/Han Solo comparison. That movie's kinda the OT in a nutshell when it comes to Han's story arc. As for Leia as Jabba's slave... Yeah... such a gratuitous... That's just... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanester Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I remember the first time I saw an image of the Death Star from ROTJ. At first I thought it was a battle-damaged Death Star under repairs. I remember thinking, "They're rebuilding it?!" Wow, you and I were thinkin the exact same thing. My Mom got me a program at the theater on opening day and I read it over while waiting for the film to start. There was a pic of the Death Star under construction and I excitedly told my Mom that they rebuilt it. I was very happy about that. Only later did I learn that it was a totally new one. I am a Vader and Stormtrooper guy mostly, but if I could be any SW character, it would be Obi Wan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM2 Dinobot Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 You know, now that I think about it, I am in agreement that a rebuilt DS would be cooler than a new one. But I guess we're just 30 years too late. :/ OoH! Another reason Jedi is my favorite. TIE Interceptors. I love them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterPL Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I am a Vader and Stormtrooper guy mostly, but if I could be any SW character, it would be Obi Wan. There was a time when I liked Ben Kenobi but that changed when I learned that he lied to Luke. I'm not a huge fan of Yoda for the same reason. Here are two remaining Jedi, the ones who know exactly what needs to be done, and they're getting a kid to do their dirty work. They don't even train him fully, just load him up with a lie about how this armored dude killed his dad – who was even cooler than his "uncle" told him – and send him on his way. The true hero of Star Wars is Artoo-Detoo. He may have a potty mouth but he's reliable and kicks both Ewok and battle droid ass. OoH! Another reason Jedi is my favorite. TIE Interceptors. I love them. The evolution of the TIE fighter is pretty cool and I can't imagine the design getting any better than the Interceptor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanester Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Sometimes, you can't tell the truth. Luke was NOT ready to hear he was the son of the second most evil person in the universe. Plus, Obi Wan didn't want Luke to know because then Vader could find out and ruin everything. Yes, I am taking up for Obi Wan... In my mind, he did the right thing and it goes even deeper than I care to go on about. The truth was just too dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM2 Dinobot Posted September 22, 2012 Author Share Posted September 22, 2012 But it was the truth... from a certain point of view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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