Most wanted "NEW" Marvel Mate

[monkeycrumb]

Oh, come on. You have four fan favorites and two characters starring in current books (WS in his own and Falcon in X vs A), and it's a convention set targeted to comic people. Maybe swap out Zemo for Commander Rogers just so you can get a star-n-stripes shield in there, and you can't say this lineup is any less feasible than the Stormbreaker set from last year.

That set did have Thor, and a Thor movie had just come out. Comic-con sets aren't just targeted at hardcore Minimate collectors, they're targeted at non-Minimate-buying comic fans, and even attendees who don't read a lot of comics. So you need an A-lister. Kang, Falcon, Winter Soldier and Zemo are high Bs (most, if not all villains are Bs), and while I love Commander Rogers, if he's not Cap, he's not Cap. Not saying we won't make those characters, just not THAT box set.

Sorry, I got a little behind and just saw this, but...

I don't understand the logic here at all. Who, pray tell, is the A-lister in the Age of X box set? Gambit? Please. Magneto? Debatable, as he has name recognition from the movies, though not in that outfit. Cyclops and Rogue? Well, maybe... except that they have different names, much the way a hypothetical Commander Rogers Minimate would. And Hasbro doesn't seem too concerned that Commander Rogers will leave parents and children dumbfounded, considering that he's currently on shelves in the Marvel Universe line, and that he'll be part of the first wave of the relaunched Marvel Legends. I think, also, that if you made the box set and stuck it in the same basic package used for the Cap Through the Ages box set, called it "Cap Friends and Foes", no one would notice there isn't an actual Captain America... just like the Wolverine Through the Ages box set that didn't have Wolverine. :biggrin:

Simple answer: Age of X is NOT a convention exclusive set!

SDCC brings in a lot of people who might never walk into a comic shop, or don't know what a minimate is. A lot of people waste a lot of time standing in line at the various stores at SDCC to buy their exclusives, and while waiting in line will see the other merchandise available. How many people waited in line at AFX for their Lost/Dexter exclusives, to see that "cute little mini-Thor boxset" and bought it on a whim? Those are the people who wouldn't touch a Wrecking Crew box set. Age of X has enough A-List X-Men that anyone walking into a comic store has a better chance of knowing those characters as opposed to the general population SDCC gets.

[Mirymate]

Cap Through the Ages II:

Cap Friends and Foes:

Tough call. I'd rather have both honestly. But if pushed, the Friends and Foes.

Or maybe...

Sidekicks:

Falcon

Nomad (Monroe)

Rick Jones

Winter Soldier

Sure no Captain America, so probably a no go, boy wouldn't it be cool?

[MisterMiracle]

No Doc Sampson or modern Luke Cage on the list?

[Mystery Man]

I'd actually rather have an update classic Luke Cage Power Man & Iron Fist.

- updated colar for Iron Fist, like what's on Deadman

- Luke Cage with a face tampo that has normal looking lips

[DSTZach]

I don't understand the logic here at all. Who, pray tell, is the A-lister in the Age of X box set? Gambit? Please. Magneto? Debatable, as he has name recognition from the movies, though not in that outfit. Cyclops and Rogue? Well, maybe... except that they have different names, much the way a hypothetical Commander Rogers Minimate would. And Hasbro doesn't seem too concerned that Commander Rogers will leave parents and children dumbfounded, considering that he's currently on shelves in the Marvel Universe line, and that he'll be part of the first wave of the relaunched Marvel Legends. I think, also, that if you made the box set and stuck it in the same basic package used for the Cap Through the Ages box set, called it "Cap Friends and Foes", no one would notice there isn't an actual Captain America... just like the Wolverine Through the Ages box set that didn't have Wolverine. :biggrin:

Simple answer: Age of X is NOT a convention exclusive set!

SDCC brings in a lot of people who might never walk into a comic shop, or don't know what a minimate is. A lot of people waste a lot of time standing in line at the various stores at SDCC to buy their exclusives, and while waiting in line will see the other merchandise available. How many people waited in line at AFX for their Lost/Dexter exclusives, to see that "cute little mini-Thor boxset" and bought it on a whim? Those are the people who wouldn't touch a Wrecking Crew box set. Age of X has enough A-List X-Men that anyone walking into a comic store has a better chance of knowing those characters as opposed to the general population SDCC gets.

I hadn't even differentiated between SDCC sets and Specialty sets, but monkeycrumb makes a good point. AoX MIGHT not have flown at a con OR at mass. But on the specialty market, I'd say Cyclops and Magneto are A-listers, and the specialty market comic readers will recognize them from the crossover event even if they're Basilisk and White Magneto. I'd go even further and say that Gambit and Rogue are As in the X-Verse, and high B's in the MU. Same logic applies for the Wolverine set -- to specialty comic readers, those were four Wolverines, even without a yellow costume between them.

THAT SAID, we did a con-exclusive set with alternate-reality versions of Cyke, Rogue and Magneto at NYCC last year. It was AoA, not AoX, but still. AND we have some second-tier characters coming up in con sets that may fly in the face of all of this. We'll see how they do, I guess! YOU all will love them, but will the con-tossed masses?

Hasbro is working with different collectors, collecting habits, price points and (most importantly) products. If we sold solo Minimates at mass, it might be a different story, but for now, look at what's in a Marvel Universe two-pack, or Marvel Legends box set. USUALLY, there's at least one recognizable A in there.

[Mirymate]

YOU all will love them,

Oh, I can virtually guarentee that no matter what you have planned, that statement will prove false. Somebody around here will be unhappy about something.

Hasbro is working with different collectors, collecting habits, price points and (most importantly) products. If we sold solo Minimates at mass, it might be a different story, but for now, look at what's in a Marvel Universe two-pack, or Marvel Legends box set. USUALLY, there's at least one recognizable A in there.

I would only suggest that you take another look at the MU 2 pack rosters.

[groundhog7s]

Can I just say that I don't think you can compare a normal box set with a comic crossover themed set. I'd argue that in AoX and AoA, the A-listers that sold the sets were the comics themselves (if that makes sense). Storylines can be in the comic consciousness for several months on the shelves and then last for years in readers minds. The story sticks more in people's minds than the individual characters (IMO). Just throwing that out there.

[hellpop]

I don't understand the logic here at all. Who, pray tell, is the A-lister in the Age of X box set? Gambit? Please. Magneto? Debatable, as he has name recognition from the movies, though not in that outfit. Cyclops and Rogue? Well, maybe... except that they have different names, much the way a hypothetical Commander Rogers Minimate would. And Hasbro doesn't seem too concerned that Commander Rogers will leave parents and children dumbfounded, considering that he's currently on shelves in the Marvel Universe line, and that he'll be part of the first wave of the relaunched Marvel Legends. I think, also, that if you made the box set and stuck it in the same basic package used for the Cap Through the Ages box set, called it "Cap Friends and Foes", no one would notice there isn't an actual Captain America... just like the Wolverine Through the Ages box set that didn't have Wolverine. :biggrin:

Simple answer: Age of X is NOT a convention exclusive set!

SDCC brings in a lot of people who might never walk into a comic shop, or don't know what a minimate is. A lot of people waste a lot of time standing in line at the various stores at SDCC to buy their exclusives, and while waiting in line will see the other merchandise available. How many people waited in line at AFX for their Lost/Dexter exclusives, to see that "cute little mini-Thor boxset" and bought it on a whim? Those are the people who wouldn't touch a Wrecking Crew box set. Age of X has enough A-List X-Men that anyone walking into a comic store has a better chance of knowing those characters as opposed to the general population SDCC gets.

I hadn't even differentiated between SDCC sets and Specialty sets, but monkeycrumb makes a good point. AoX MIGHT not have flown at a con OR at mass. But on the specialty market, I'd say Cyclops and Magneto are A-listers, and the specialty market comic readers will recognize them from the crossover event even if they're Basilisk and White Magneto. I'd go even further and say that Gambit and Rogue are As in the X-Verse, and high B's in the MU. Same logic applies for the Wolverine set -- to specialty comic readers, those were four Wolverines, even without a yellow costume between them.

THAT SAID, we did a con-exclusive set with alternate-reality versions of Cyke, Rogue and Magneto at NYCC last year. It was AoA, not AoX, but still. AND we have some second-tier characters coming up in con sets that may fly in the face of all of this. We'll see how they do, I guess! YOU all will love them, but will the con-tossed masses?

Hasbro is working with different collectors, collecting habits, price points and (most importantly) products. If we sold solo Minimates at mass, it might be a different story, but for now, look at what's in a Marvel Universe two-pack, or Marvel Legends box set. USUALLY, there's at least one recognizable A in there.

I have to admit, I completely overlooked that Lobsterman had suggested this set as a con exclusive. But you're right, Zack, the same argument would apply to the AoA sets. But I'd say that the proposed set, with Commander Rogers et all, would do very well at specialty. But, of course, with the specialty market, the problem is not in getting the consumer interested, but the RETAILERS, since those guys are actually your direct customers. But I do think that making sets for the specialty market based on X-Men events, at this point, is not the best choice, since the X-Men ceased being the engine that drives the Marvel Universe some years ago. Look at the sales figures; it's the Avengers now.

My personal feeling about con exclusives (not just from you guys, but everybody) is that they should dip pretty deep into the well. At a con, I think, you don't need to cater to the casual fan, because the casual fan ain't comin'. Not at those prices! Cons are the perfect place to do something like the Squadron Supreme, or the Guardians of the Galaxy, or the Wrecking Crew, or the Inhumans... feel free to use any of these suggestions, by the way. :biggrin: Something that might not find a home at retail, but might just be odd enough to catch the eye of the passing geek. The Deadpool NYCC set's a good example of this. The Heralds of Galactus set, actually, would have made for a great con exclusive. Glad we didn't have to wait, though!

[DSTZach]

I would only suggest that you take another look at the MU 2 pack rosters.

Unless you're telling me we need to make the Wrecking Crew, in which case you're preaching to the choir, I assume you're saying some MU two-packs are all B-list. I know there's a new wave out with, like, Gambit/Sinister and Moon Knight/Ant-Man, Wonder Man/Quicksilver and Heroes for Hire, but OTHER THAN THAT...

But seriously, all I was saying that, other than those dudes, MOST of the two-packs that have come out had at LEAST one of the following dudes in it: Spider-Man, Captain America, Iron Man, Thor, Hulk, Mr. Fantastic, Thing or Deadpool. Some of them even had two of those guys, and the remainder had Hawkeye, Storm and Doom as their big guns, none of whom are slouches.

Sales of this new wave may refute my claim that that you need that big gun in every pack, but I still maintain the differences between the two products (MM and MU) make them largely uncomparable.

[DSTZach]

But I'd say that the proposed set, with Commander Rogers et all, would do very well at specialty. But, of course, with the specialty market, the problem is not in getting the consumer interested, but the RETAILERS, since those guys are actually your direct customers. But I do think that making sets for the specialty market based on X-Men events, at this point, is not the best choice, since the X-Men ceased being the engine that drives the Marvel Universe some years ago. Look at the sales figures; it's the Avengers now.

Maybe the set would do well at specialty, or maybe retailers would really want it to have an actual Cap in it, so they can sell it to kids who don't know Commander Rogers. And we've made plenty of Avengers sets for specialty, and there will be plenty more -- I would think any chance for us NOT to do an Avengers set at this point would be welcome. But we can't ignore X-fans, who still exist, sometimes in sad child form.

My personal feeling about con exclusives (not just from you guys, but everybody) is that they should dip pretty deep into the well. At a con, I think, you don't need to cater to the casual fan, because the casual fan ain't comin'. Not at those prices! Cons are the perfect place to do something like the Squadron Supreme, or the Guardians of the Galaxy, or the Wrecking Crew, or the Inhumans... feel free to use any of these suggestions, by the way. :biggrin: Something that might not find a home at retail, but might just be odd enough to catch the eye of the passing geek. The Deadpool NYCC set's a good example of this. The Heralds of Galactus set, actually, would have made for a great con exclusive. Glad we didn't have to wait, though!

Do you mean con ticket prices are too high, or con box set prices? If the former, I think not only are there plenty of casual Minimate fans (and even non-fans) in attendance, there are also casual comic fans in general -- they may not fly there, but they'll go to local cons. And they both will shell out the money for a Minimate set with their favorite character or storyline, which is why we usually include a popular character; choosing a set of characters based on how random they are, hoping it will catch a geek's eye, seems like a big gamble. Especially with kids, because chances are a kid's favorite character belongs to none of the groups you mentioned. I think the Deadpool Corps set would have done great at specialty, not because it's odd, but because DP is really popular. Galactus would have been great anywhere -- cons, specialty, etc. -- it just happened to come about through a partnership with TRU.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Zach Oat

[hellpop]

But I'd say that the proposed set, with Commander Rogers et all, would do very well at specialty. But, of course, with the specialty market, the problem is not in getting the consumer interested, but the RETAILERS, since those guys are actually your direct customers. But I do think that making sets for the specialty market based on X-Men events, at this point, is not the best choice, since the X-Men ceased being the engine that drives the Marvel Universe some years ago. Look at the sales figures; it's the Avengers now.

Maybe the set would do well at specialty, or maybe retailers would really want it to have an actual Cap in it, so they can sell it to kids who don't know Commander Rogers. And we've made plenty of Avengers sets for specialty, and there will be plenty more -- I would think any chance for us NOT to do an Avengers set at this point would be welcome. But we can't ignore X-fans, who still exist, sometimes in sad child form.

Not to belabor the point, Zack, and I know you weren't at the company the whole time, but... it's actually been a REALLY long time since DST has made an Avengers-themed box set. You have to go all the way back to 2009, with the Dark Avengers box sets for the San Diego Comic Con. I'd even give you the Champions, since that features Black Widow and Hercules, but that set was released in the same con. Since then, we've had: FA X-Men, X-Factor, X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, New Mutants, AoA 1, AoA 2, Uncanny X-Force, Excalibur, X-Men First Class, Curse of the Mutants, and Age of X. Granted, there were box sets featuring individual Avengers, such as Cap and Thor, and individual Avengers appeared in sets like Secret Wars, but still... that's a lotta X-Men!

I'm not saying that DST should abandon the X-Men characters for the Avengers, but that focusing on the X-Men at this time, when they are CLEARLY behind the Avengers in terms of reader interest and Marvel's editorial focus, is a mistake. Putting out a set from a storyline like Curse of the Mutants, which was neither a big critical or commercial success, rather then something like Siege, which at least sold very well, is backing the wrong horse. My two cents. Of course, if I were the guy in charge, I'd have ignored them both for Annihilation. :biggrin:

My personal feeling about con exclusives (not just from you guys, but everybody) is that they should dip pretty deep into the well. At a con, I think, you don't need to cater to the casual fan, because the casual fan ain't comin'. Not at those prices! Cons are the perfect place to do something like the Squadron Supreme, or the Guardians of the Galaxy, or the Wrecking Crew, or the Inhumans... feel free to use any of these suggestions, by the way. :biggrin: Something that might not find a home at retail, but might just be odd enough to catch the eye of the passing geek. The Deadpool NYCC set's a good example of this. The Heralds of Galactus set, actually, would have made for a great con exclusive. Glad we didn't have to wait, though!

Do you mean con ticket prices are too high, or con box set prices? If the former, I think not only are there plenty of casual Minimate fans (and even non-fans) in attendance, there are also casual comic fans in general -- they may not fly there, but they'll go to local cons. And they both will shell out the money for a Minimate set with their favorite character or storyline, which is why we usually include a popular character; choosing a set of characters based on how random they are, hoping it will catch a geek's eye, seems like a big gamble. Especially with kids, because chances are a kid's favorite character belongs to none of the groups you mentioned. I think the Deadpool Corps set would have done great at specialty, not because it's odd, but because DP is really popular. Galactus would have been great anywhere -- cons, specialty, etc. -- it just happened to come about through a partnership with TRU.

I meant the price of the Con. I don't believe that shows like SDCC and NYCC draw much in the way of casual attendees, IE people that aren't already into comics, sci fi, anime, ect. It's too expensive, too crowded, too much of a pain in the @$$... I know I wouldn't go if I didn't love comics! :biggrin: I agree with you, though, that it's a great place for you guys to reach new customers; the Deadpool set at New York this year was effing brilliant, because I'm pretty sure I saw more people dressed as Deadpool at that show than anyone else. And I DON'T think that's a set that would have done well at specialty, because I can imagine retailers looking at it and saying "four Deadpools? No one's going to want that! Pass."

I personally think that the same principle would apply to the properties I mentioned... if you did a Guardians of the Galaxy set and included Rocket Raccoon, it would sell at a con because the audience there thinks he's awesome. For example.

Anyway, thanks, as always, for taking the time to have these back-and-forths with us here... it really does mean a lot.

[DSTZach]

[Not to belabor the point, Zack, and I know you weren't at the company the whole time, but... it's actually been a REALLY long time since DST has made an Avengers-themed box set. You have to go all the way back to 2009, with the Dark Avengers box sets for the San Diego Comic Con. I'd even give you the Champions, since that features Black Widow and Hercules, but that set was released in the same con. Since then, we've had: FA X-Men, X-Factor, X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, New Mutants, AoA 1, AoA 2, Uncanny X-Force, Excalibur, X-Men First Class, Curse of the Mutants, and Age of X. Granted, there were box sets featuring individual Avengers, such as Cap and Thor, and individual Avengers appeared in sets like Secret Wars, but still... that's a lotta X-Men!

Are we wrong to pay attention to the X-Men? Character-wise, the X-Men take up at huge chunk of the universe, and have legions of old and young fans, thanks to the first successful Marvel film franchise. Also, keep in mind that there are still more X-Men titles than Avengers titles -- I think there are 12 X-books now, thanks to the Schism! Not positive about Avengers title numbers, but pretty sure it's less than that.

And I think discounting Cap and Thor sets as Avengers sets simply because they're popular enough to also have their own titles seems false, especially if you're counting EVERY TEAM that has mutants on it as X-Men. So I'd count Heroic Age, Classic Heroic Age, Cap Through the Ages, Thor Stormbreaker, Heroes and Adversaries (three Avengers in there, mind you) and Iron Man 2 as Avengers box sets that have appeared since 2009.

And keep in mind that the two-packs (and single packs) being released were dominated by Iron Man in 2010 and Cap and Thor this past year. So 35, 36, 39, 40 and 42 have all been focused on Avengers, not to mention TRU 6, 7 and all the movie waves save XMFC. That's a lotta Avengers! Sure, there were an X-wave or two, as well, and some X-Men mixed into some of the other waves, but some Avengers (Secret, New or otherwise) were mixed into those, too.

Putting out a set from a storyline like Curse of the Mutants, which was neither a big critical or commercial success, rather then something like Siege, which at least sold very well, is backing the wrong horse. My two cents. Of course, if I were the guy in charge, I'd have ignored them both for Annihilation. :biggrin:

Pretty sure development on the Curse set started before the series concluded, if not before the first issues even came out. And the set was done with collectors in mind, assuming the new vampire versions of Wolvie and Jubilee, plus an updated Blade and the first Marvel Dracula, would be more welcome than re-hashes of the major players of Siege, most of whom had been done before. Unless you wanted tangential characters like Red Hood and the U-Foes, in which case, see above.

I meant the price of the Con. I don't believe that shows like SDCC and NYCC draw much in the way of casual attendees, IE people that aren't already into comics, sci fi, anime, ect. It's too expensive, too crowded, too much of a pain in the @$$... I know I wouldn't go if I didn't love comics! :biggrin:

Hardcore fans of anything represented at the show -- video games, anime, samurai swords, etc. -- can still be casual comics fans. Also, cool parents who bring their hardcore comics-loving kids to the show, or curious kids who come with their hardcore parents. And by choosing the most popular characters -- Rocket Raccoon's Saturday morning cartoon notwithstanding, Thor is more popular universally -- we're more likely to get a casual comics fan's attention. Making a character who has no toys simply to get a sale from that character's superfans is a gamble. And it's a gamble for a retailer to buy, too.

[TM2 Dinobot]

Well, Zach, I'm going to throw this out there. You have the sales numbers in front of you. We don't. You have a long history in the industry. We don't. We sit back, buy, and speculate. You plan meticulously because it is literally your pay check. You know what you're doing. We're just guessing.

That said, from what you yourself have heard in this very thread, people want, and have wanted for a long time, a Cap Pack. We want it more than Kang. We want it more than Squirrel Girl (which is a lot). The numbers are right at the top of every page. Specialty, con exclusive, sell it out of a taco truck. We don't care.

Commander Rogers (throw a cap mask on him if it makes you happy)

Falcon

Baron Zemo

Winter Soldier

Make it happen.

[Mirymate]

I think the main argument against Commander Rogers, and the Hank Pym Wasp, was that the neither identity lasted very long. The Wasp phase lasted maybe 2 years, but most of the time out of the public eye on Avengers B-teams through the Dark Reign and Siege. Commander Rogers... did the ID make it a whole year? (stories I'm good with, sense of RL time, not so much) A little shorter than the Captain, but longer than he did for the Name-Without-A-Country/Ex-Patriot, and maybe a little longer than Nomad. I think he spent more time being dead. It's now relagated to "interesting footnote" status. Even Hasbro, which featured Rogers on it's 2011 packaging, barely got a figure to the shelves as the ID was retired. (and I'm not sure they managed that) With that in mind, I think the prime opportunity for the ID is past. Not saying it shouldn't get made, but that it's lost any forward momentum it could have had by being "current".

And yes, Zach, what I meant was that they have had some set anchored by high B's (Hawkeye, Daredevil), and even some low B's/High C's (Gambit, Quicksilver). (we won't argue the cosmic injustice that is Deadpool's A list status)

As for A vs X... the X-Men have more team books, 8 (?) X's vs 4 A's, while the Avengers have more members with solo titles: 2 (Wolverine's, the rest got canceled) vs I don't know... how many Cap/Thor/Iron Man/Spider-Man sub titles are running right now? a cagillion? And since Wolverine is an Avenger, that technically makes his solo books count toward both team's totals. What does all that mean? No idea.

[DSTZach]

Well, Zach, I'm going to throw this out there. You have the sales numbers in front of you. We don't. You have a long history in the industry. We don't. We sit back, buy, and speculate. You plan meticulously because it is literally your pay check. You know what you're doing. We're just guessing.

I haven't been in the industry THAT long. I joined in 1999. I kinda left in 2008, and came back this year, but I was writing a book about toys for much of that time, so I guess that counts. And I am not involved in character selection or line planning. I have been told what has and hasn't worked, and I have a vague sense of what they're trying to do with each year's line plan.

That said, from what you yourself have heard in this very thread, people want, and have wanted for a long time, a Cap Pack. We want it more than Kang. We want it more than Squirrel Girl (which is a lot). The numbers are right at the top of every page. Specialty, con exclusive, sell it out of a taco truck. We don't care.

Oh, I get it. I know that you guys want Falcon, Winter Soldier, Commander Rogers and Baron Zemo. (And Kang, always Kang.) And while only 95 people have voted, and only 30-35% of respondents even voted FOR these characters (Commander Rogers isn't even a voting option, that I can see), I know that cross-section represents a real desire from collectors. My last rambling post was only the end of a long, pointless back-and-forth about how that SPECIFIC Cap-pack would probably never happen -- I would bet that all of those figures will eventually get made, just in separate 4-packs or two-packs or what have you.

Make it happen.

What do I look like, a comic book villain? I made it happen two weeks ago.

Just kidding. But yeah, nobody's actually asked me how many of those are already coming out in 2012.

[groundhog7s]

Just kidding. But yeah, nobody's actually asked me how many of those are already coming out in 2012.

Okay, I'll bite.

Hey Zach, just how many of those characters are already coming out in 2012?

[DSTZach]

At least one that I know of.

[groundhog7s]

Awesome!

[Mirymate]

Just to be clear: One of the following characters is on the 2012 schedule... Commander Rogers, Baron Zemo, Falcon, Winter Soldier.

Maybe more, but not less.

And yes... ALWAYS Kang.

[battlecat]

I think the main argument against Commander Rogers, and the Hank Pym Wasp, was that the neither identity lasted very long. The Wasp phase lasted maybe 2 years, but most of the time out of the public eye on Avengers B-teams through the Dark Reign and Siege. Commander Rogers... did the ID make it a whole year? (stories I'm good with, sense of RL time, not so much) A little shorter than the Captain, but longer than he did for the Name-Without-A-Country/Ex-Patriot, and maybe a little longer than Nomad. I think he spent more time being dead. It's now relagated to "interesting footnote" status. Even Hasbro, which featured Rogers on it's 2011 packaging, barely got a figure to the shelves as the ID was retired. (and I'm not sure they managed that) With that in mind, I think the prime opportunity for the ID is past. Not saying it shouldn't get made, but that it's lost any forward momentum it could have had by being "current".

I'd consider anything from the last couple of years to be "current" -- he might not be wearing that outfit anymore in single issues, but it'll still be showing up in Marvel's hardcover and trade collections for the next while. I don't think anyone was too bothered that we got the Warren Ellis Thunderbolts team a year after that roster had changed, because it was a cool team in recent memory. Same goes for Rogers.

Edited December 28, 2011 by battlecat

[hellpop]

[Not to belabor the point, Zack, and I know you weren't at the company the whole time, but... it's actually been a REALLY long time since DST has made an Avengers-themed box set. You have to go all the way back to 2009, with the Dark Avengers box sets for the San Diego Comic Con. I'd even give you the Champions, since that features Black Widow and Hercules, but that set was released in the same con. Since then, we've had: FA X-Men, X-Factor, X-Force, Uncanny X-Men, New Mutants, AoA 1, AoA 2, Uncanny X-Force, Excalibur, X-Men First Class, Curse of the Mutants, and Age of X. Granted, there were box sets featuring individual Avengers, such as Cap and Thor, and individual Avengers appeared in sets like Secret Wars, but still... that's a lotta X-Men!

Are we wrong to pay attention to the X-Men? Character-wise, the X-Men take up at huge chunk of the universe, and have legions of old and young fans, thanks to the first successful Marvel film franchise. Also, keep in mind that there are still more X-Men titles than Avengers titles -- I think there are 12 X-books now, thanks to the Schism! Not positive about Avengers title numbers, but pretty sure it's less than that.

And I think discounting Cap and Thor sets as Avengers sets simply because they're popular enough to also have their own titles seems false, especially if you're counting EVERY TEAM that has mutants on it as X-Men. So I'd count Heroic Age, Classic Heroic Age, Cap Through the Ages, Thor Stormbreaker, Heroes and Adversaries (three Avengers in there, mind you) and Iron Man 2 as Avengers box sets that have appeared since 2009.

And keep in mind that the two-packs (and single packs) being released were dominated by Iron Man in 2010 and Cap and Thor this past year. So 35, 36, 39, 40 and 42 have all been focused on Avengers, not to mention TRU 6, 7 and all the movie waves save XMFC. That's a lotta Avengers! Sure, there were an X-wave or two, as well, and some X-Men mixed into some of the other waves, but some Avengers (Secret, New or otherwise) were mixed into those, too.

Putting out a set from a storyline like Curse of the Mutants, which was neither a big critical or commercial success, rather then something like Siege, which at least sold very well, is backing the wrong horse. My two cents. Of course, if I were the guy in charge, I'd have ignored them both for Annihilation. :biggrin:

Pretty sure development on the Curse set started before the series concluded, if not before the first issues even came out. And the set was done with collectors in mind, assuming the new vampire versions of Wolvie and Jubilee, plus an updated Blade and the first Marvel Dracula, would be more welcome than re-hashes of the major players of Siege, most of whom had been done before. Unless you wanted tangential characters like Red Hood and the U-Foes, in which case, see above.

I meant the price of the Con. I don't believe that shows like SDCC and NYCC draw much in the way of casual attendees, IE people that aren't already into comics, sci fi, anime, ect. It's too expensive, too crowded, too much of a pain in the @$$... I know I wouldn't go if I didn't love comics! :biggrin:

Hardcore fans of anything represented at the show -- video games, anime, samurai swords, etc. -- can still be casual comics fans. Also, cool parents who bring their hardcore comics-loving kids to the show, or curious kids who come with their hardcore parents. And by choosing the most popular characters -- Rocket Raccoon's Saturday morning cartoon notwithstanding, Thor is more popular universally -- we're more likely to get a casual comics fan's attention. Making a character who has no toys simply to get a sale from that character's superfans is a gamble. And it's a gamble for a retailer to buy, too.

You're kidding about that Rocket Raccoon cartoon, aren't you? That's just mean.

I'm not trying to make an Avengers vs. X-Men thing about the box sets, just pointing out that the ones released in the last few years have been very X-heavy. And, since the box sets are often the best way for us to get lesser lights, that's been disappointing. Of course, the X-Men are a very different property from the Avengers, which is more of an umbrella for solo heroes. The X-Men collectively are A-listers, but individually none of the characters save Wolverine have that status. As Miry pointed out, none of the other X-Men have a solo title right now, and none have even proven capable of sustaining a solo title for a significant period of time. But now we're just arguing semantics.

I would also agree with Miry that the time for Commander Rogers has passed, since that identity was so fleeting. Hey, at least it lasted longer then Spidey's id reveal (Marvel really drives me nuts sometimes...). I also think that was Chuck's basic argument against the Winter Soldier those months ago, which somehow became "we won't make him because he's dead" which somehow became "we have a rule against making any dead character", which is preposterous. I know it's tough for you guys to keep up with continuity, when it's so fluid and your development process is so long. Did I mention that I thought it was brilliant of you guys to announce the Miles Morales Spider-Man when you did?

[DSTZach]

You're kidding about that Rocket Raccoon cartoon, aren't you? That's just mean.

Sorry, I was trying to make a point, at the expense of your feelings. I apologize.

I'm not trying to make an Avengers vs. X-Men thing about the box sets, just pointing out that the ones released in the last few years have been very X-heavy. And, since the box sets are often the best way for us to get lesser lights, that's been disappointing. Of course, the X-Men are a very different property from the Avengers, which is more of an umbrella for solo heroes. The X-Men collectively are A-listers, but individually none of the characters save Wolverine have that status. As Miry pointed out, none of the other X-Men have a solo title right now, and none have even proven capable of sustaining a solo title for a significant period of time. But now we're just arguing semantics.

I think two-packs get a lot of lesser-known characters out there. My favorite C-lister Minimate is and always shall be Stilt-Man.

I would also agree with Miry that the time for Commander Rogers has passed, since that identity was so fleeting. Hey, at least it lasted longer then Spidey's id reveal (Marvel really drives me nuts sometimes...). I also think that was Chuck's basic argument against the Winter Soldier those months ago, which somehow became "we won't make him because he's dead" which somehow became "we have a rule against making any dead character", which is preposterous. I know it's tough for you guys to keep up with continuity, when it's so fluid and your development process is so long. Did I mention that I thought it was brilliant of you guys to announce the Miles Morales Spider-Man when you did?

Thank you! I will take credit for that. And while we certainly asked ourselves, "Will he still be around next summer?" when we decided to do him (it seems like he will), we aren't going to rule out a cool character look just because it was short-lived. Heroes Return Iron Man was not a long-lived armor, nor was the armored Captain America. Just saying.

[Mirymate]

I don't think anyone was too bothered that we got the Warren Ellis Thunderbolts team a year after that roster had changed, because it was a cool team in recent memory.

The difference I think is that the Ellis T-Bots had some really cool, strong stories associated with them. Commander Rogers... not so much. Unless you found the whole Evil Fury LMD thing particularly memorable.

[hellpop]

You're kidding about that Rocket Raccoon cartoon, aren't you? That's just mean.

Sorry, I was trying to make a point, at the expense of your feelings. I apologize.

Please know I wasn't actually very mad. It's just... how awesome would a Rocket Raccoon cartoon be? I got excited for a second and thought that I'd missed an announcement about it. Then I realized that it was just (well-played) sarcasm. My emoticon did not accurately reflect the full range of my emotions. :biggrin:

I think two-packs get a lot of lesser-known characters out there. My favorite C-lister Minimate is and always shall be Stilt-Man.

Certainly true. We know you guys do really go out of your way to try and expand the mini Marvel Universe. You did, for example, a really nice job in pairing Cap and Thor with various friends and foes in the most recent releases. There's always room for improvement, though.

[Mirymate]

Heroes Return Iron Man was not a long-lived armor, <snip>. Just saying.

It lasted from Heroes Return until it gained sentience (actually a long buried Ultron Imperative breaking through lightening damaged firewalls, but that's another story). Seems like about three years, maybe less. About the same time as the Silver Centurion. No armor comes close to the classic Mark IV for longevity, though the "Prometheus II" design lasted for a long while with only minor alterations. (with which Marvel counted every minor shift in the reds and golds on the suit as a different armor for some reason, rather than artists intupretations of an overly complex design, but I digress) Not sure if it or the Neo-Classic armor ranks in second place for longest worn overall. Before I completely lose my point in rambling, the majority of armors have about the same lifespan as the Heroes Return suit, including the Extremis armor. So it's hard to lump the various armors into the same boat as the Commander Rogers ID. (of course, I'm biased towards wanting all the various armors for Iron Man, and always considered Commander Rogers a placeholder ID until Steve went back to being Cap)