The Politics of Civil War

[Danny]

I'd expect them to go after the villains who are atively trying to destroy society rather than pick on the easy target of the anti-registration hereos.

[infallible]

Hmmm I don't buy the 'peter parker could have not put on a costume and fight crime' thing.... the whole Ben parker incident was plotted to make that happen.... Could you just sit on your hands if you had those powers? I dont think so...

Either way, it's a choice. Nobody forced Peter to become Spider-Man. Sure, he didn't have any choice over his powers, and losing Ben is a big deal, but he still had choice in the matter. If Peter had never put on the suit, there wouldn't be a Spider-Man.

Also people who aren't using their powers are being forced to register as well so it's not a matter of choice (see latest avengers for an example). That's simply making people do something because you want them too and taking away their civil liberties and that's what Cap is fighting for.

I assume you're talking about Jessica Jones, right? If Jess had never been an Avenger and had never been a superheroine, you'd have a point. But Jessica is a superhero, even if retired. She's clearly shown that she's been willing to use her powers in the past, so I don't think that you can avoid registering her. Registration doesn't mean that she has to fight. It just means that the government knows who she is. Was it wrong of them to require her to be registered to be a PI? Where was Cap then?

Sure if Shield wants to get some insurance to cover collateral damage fine, if they want to arrest a 'cape' for killing someone with their powers afte they do it then fine ( and If they are as powerfull as they are portrayed to be then knowing who someone is would be a easy for them to find out making te act pointless)

Even SHIELD doesn't know who all these guys are, so as it is now, there's no way for them to hold a hero accountable for when they mess up. I just don't think hiding behind that mask is necessarily a couragous thing. The work they do sure is, and I'm not discounting that, but as I said, it's also couragous to stand up and say, "I messed up, and I need to face the consequences."

BUT to make everyone register because they MIGHT do something bad is like putting everyone in America on the sexoffenders list because they have the "potential" to commit those acts.

would you want to be put on a list because of what you MIGHT do?

Everyone that needs to register is a current or former superhero. They've used their powers for vigilantism. If you don't use your powers, then no need to register. (Although in a lot of places, if you own a gun, you're required to register, and that's another case of being on a list because of what you might do.)

Isn't Shield/goverment doing exactly the thing that it's making everyone register to prevent, abuse of power?

I don't see this "abuse of power" argument. Look at a doctor. Why should they be required to register? If a person wants to perform medicine, then why should the government get involved?

Also how do they define this.. so galactus comes along and hovers over the US... I'd like to see Tony Stark explain his need to register to him!

I don't think that Galactus is subject to it, since he's not an American (and isn't really operating within America).

[TBT!]

Seeing as you've made this a 'quote for quote' and not keeping the generalised 'feel' it started with I'll quote you...

Either way, it's a choice. Nobody forced Peter to become Spider-Man. Sure, he didn't have any choice over his powers, and losing Ben is a big deal, but he still had choice in the matter. If Peter had never put on the suit, there wouldn't be a Spider-Man.

Erm that's not any more of a choice than do you want to put your hand in a running blender or a nice bowl of marshmellows... You are forgetting that it is a 'comic book world' and fate screwed parker until he gave into the inevitable.

I assume you're talking about Jessica Jones, right? If Jess had never been an Avenger and had never been a superheroine, you'd have a point. But Jessica is a superhero, even if retired. She's clearly shown that she's been willing to use her powers in the past, so I don't think that you can avoid registering her. Registration doesn't mean that she has to fight. It just means that the government knows who she is. Was it wrong of them to require her to be registered to be a PI? Where was Cap then?

This one simple... They already know who she is or how did they find her? so why force her to register?

and dont spout the "it's the law and they have to do it or She's a criminal" reply, its not that it's the law that is the question its WHY should it be law and is it right to effectively persecute people when they are doing no harm.

Even SHIELD doesn't know who all these guys are, so as it is now, there's no way for them to hold a hero accountable for when they mess up. I just don't think hiding behind that mask is necessarily a couragous thing. The work they do sure is, and I'm not discounting that, but as I said, it's also couragous to stand up and say, "I messed up, and I need to face the consequences."

The mask isn't always there to protect them it's to protect those close to them. Is it also there to protect them from having to wonder if you're going to be faced with a huge bill everytime you try to stop a supervillain from trashing a city? - In that world no one comes to save "the city"... they simply couldn't afford to pay for the collateral damage so why show up...

Would you rather have someone cut you out of your car or be left to die in it cos they were frightened of getting sued for damages to the Car?

Everyone that needs to register is a current or former superhero. They've used their powers for vigilantism. If you don't use your powers, then no need to register. (Although in a lot of places, if you own a gun, you're required to register, and that's another case of being on a list because of what you might do.)

The world in which they live is defined by then and the level of threats they can cope with.... you can just call them Vigilantes.... they are Heroes without whom there would be no goverment or probably planet.

How many people in future wont be saving lives or 'fighting the good fight' because of this act?

And what will the next act that the goverment pass? You can bet it's some way of using this registration to coerce the 'suits' into pretty much being hired thugs for the goverment, some of them already are.

I don't see this "abuse of power" argument. Look at a doctor. Why should they be required to register? If a person wants to perform medicine, then why should the government get involved?

Are you blind? Do you have any concept of why freedom & the constitution is seen as such a valuable commodity? In order to prove my point I would have to go down a road that is not really approriate for this forum... but history shows that this is not a good idea to monkey with peoples liberties because they are a minority (and yes for the most aprt people with super powers are a minority) that you do not agree with.

Not to mention there is a huge difference between a doctor and a superhero, yes they both save lives and sometimes fail... however your average doctor could not wipe out a small country singlehandedly. No single goverment should have control of that sort of power... it would lead to a global "superhero cold war"....

I don't think that Galactus is subject to it, since he's not an American (and isn't really operating within America).

Why? He is hovering directly over the country and is a powerfull threat to America at that point...

Also Because he's not an American?? so you'd let Thor swan around unregistered? he's a god but is jsut as capable of collateral damage as any other 'suits'.

T.

[Cyc]

SHIELD and co are going after superheroes while they are saving people, some like She-Hulk for example brining along registered aid to take care of the situation while she talks to the hero about registration, but it's easy to see that Civil War will build to a pro-reg hero going more for the anti-reg hero than the baddie and the baddie do something Nitro-esq...

Also be interesting to see how other countries will react as foregin heroes on US soil are being arrested. Given the Civil War/War on Terror theme they have going, sooner rather than later.

[infallible]

Erm that's not any more of a choice than do you want to put your hand in a running blender or a nice bowl of marshmellows... You are forgetting that it is a 'comic book world' and fate screwed parker until he gave into the inevitable.

Yes, it's a fictional world, but if we're going to discuss it, then we have to assume that these characters have free will, and we have to assume that they are capable of making a choice. If these guys don't have free will, then there's no reason to call them heroes or villains because there's no morality to the choices. So, yes, "Peter" didn't have a choice because he doesn't exist. But for any discussion, we have to assume that we're talking about a real world with real people that have real minds. Free will is part of that. Peter chose to become Spider-Man, he chose to marry Mary-Jane, he chose to reveal his identity.

So, assuming Peter has free will, he has a choice in the matter. Assuming he doesn't have free will, then there's nothing to discuss. Since the discussion is fun, I'll assume that he has free will.

This one simple... They already know who she is or how did they find her? so why force her to register?

and dont spout the "it's the law and they have to do it or She's a criminal" reply, its not that it's the law that is the question its WHY should it be law and is it right to effectively persecute people when they are doing no harm.

But, it is the law. The law has to objectively apply to everyone. But as to why she's have to register, as I said, she's a superhuman who had previously fought criminals. That puts her under the umbrella of the registration act. The purpose of the law is for those that they don't know about. But it still doesn't answer the question: Jessica had to register when she became a PI. Why doesn't she have to register as a hero? Why shouldn't heroes, who are far more dangerous, also be licensed?

The mask isn't always there to protect them it's to protect those close to them. Is it also there to protect them from having to wonder if you're going to be faced with a huge bill everytime you try to stop a supervillain from trashing a city? - In that world no one comes to save "the city"... they simply couldn't afford to pay for the collateral damage so why show up...

Would you rather have someone cut you out of your car or be left to die in it cos they were frightened of getting sued for damages to the Car?

Then why don't we want the police to wear masks? Like I said before, the police are subject to the same kind of personal revenge. But their identity needs to be known when they overstep their authority. And I'm not talking about sending the heroes a bill for when they damage stuff. Again, look at the police, no individual policeman has to pay when he trashes someone's car, nor would individual heroes have to pay for that. But they do have to face charges when they beat someone, or kill someone. Heroes are subject to none of that because they cannot be identified. They can beat up or kill whomever they want, and not face any repurcussions (as has happened before).

The world in which they live is defined by then and the level of threats they can cope with.... you can just call them Vigilantes.... they are Heroes without whom there would be no goverment or probably planet.

How many people in future wont be saving lives or 'fighting the good fight' because of this act?

And what will the next act that the goverment pass? You can bet it's some way of using this registration to coerce the 'suits' into pretty much being hired thugs for the goverment, some of them already are.

In that case, you deal with that when it happens. No hero should be forced to serve the government; such a thing is just as immoral as the draft.

Are you blind? Do you have any concept of why freedom & the constitution is seen as such a valuable commodity? In order to prove my point I would have to go down a road that is not really approriate for this forum... but history shows that this is not a good idea to monkey with peoples liberties because they are a minority (and yes for the most aprt people with super powers are a minority) that you do not agree with.

Not to mention there is a huge difference between a doctor and a superhero, yes they both save lives and sometimes fail... however your average doctor could not wipe out a small country singlehandedly. No single goverment should have control of that sort of power... it would lead to a global "superhero cold war"....

Doctors are a minority, is it discrimination against a minority to require them to be licensed? Of course not. This is nothing like the way ethnic minorities have been discriminated against. Being a superhero is a choice, just as being a doctor is a choice. If you want to accept that power and use it, then accept responsibility for your actions. That simple, just like anyone else.

Plus, under registration, no government has control over the heroes. Does the government control the doctors just because the doctors have to be licensed? Do they control you because you have a driver's license? Of course not. I just don't understand how you want licensed doctors, who, at best, can kill a couple people a day, but not heroes, who can kill thousands a day. For consistancy, you have to not want doctors licensed, drivers licensed, hunters licensed, or anyone else. Is that your position?

Why? He is hovering directly over the country and is a powerfull threat to America at that point...

Also Because he's not an American?? so you'd let Thor swan around unregistered? he's a god but is jsut as capable of collateral damage as any other 'suits'.

If you're an American citizen superhero, or practicing superheroism in America, then I'd expect you to be registered. Just like any other worker. When you apply for a job, you fill out forms stating that you're legal to work in the country. Same with heroes. If Thor wants to be a superhero in America, or live in America, then he ought to register. And if Galactus wanted to settle down in Boston, then I'd expect him to register, too.

Ultimately, like any other registration, it's about accountability. Doctors are accountable if they screw up. I'm accountable if I hit someone with my car. Hunters are accoutnable if they shoot someone. Heroes should be accountable if they do wrong, too. They may have superhuman abilities, but they're sill humans like the rest of us, and they shouldn't be able to wantonly trod over the rest of us whenever they want.

[TBT!]

And if Galactus wanted to settle down in Boston, then I'd expect him to register, too.

Lol this made me laugh out loud....I had a mental image of him siting down in a BIG comfy chair and the doorbell going and him sighing and thinking "oh boy not shield again...."!

BTW it's good to see we can talk about this stuff and keep it civil. Political type threads are more often than not banned in forums...

I think that the biggest differences we have here are that you see it as accountability and I see it as persecution, I'd say that 99% of these heroes are accountable by their very nature and do try their best to not make stupid mistakes that kill or cause unessicary damage. Accountable is very different from persecuted, those who dont want to sign up with the goverments schemes shouldn't have people chasing them out of the country.

I think we are going to have to dissagree that Spiderman has a choice in what he does, his life has proven to him that if he doesn't use his powers 'for good' innocent people get hurt.... and therefore morally he has no choice... you never answered my question about if you had those powers could you just sit on your hands and not use them knowing you could be saving lives or worse not saving lives by not using them... Because of the Act, Heroes are going to be labelled 'negligent' for not responding to some "crisis" now that they are outed?

How many people has spiderman killed? So why should he be forced to register to the goverment when he has not done anything wrong... If he has done something illegal then surely he should be tried for that, which means he'll be inprison which means he's not fighting 'the good fight' so this act is really just stopping the good guys from getting the job done as the bad guys will pretty much ignore it, oh look another law I broke... ooops!

Another Question is the point that they must be made accountable for their actions... how is the goverment having them registered (effectively named in a database) going to make a difference. oh look the hulk just killed some innocent.. be a good chap and go tell him off will you...... Yes they have superhero's like ironman but heck if they cant catch the bad guys what hope is there of doing the same for the good guys?

This whole act is supposed to be about accountability... Who are the govement accountable to with all this information? you really dont think that the goverment is beyond putting the screws on 'heroes' to make them do what they want?

I still say No to the ACT...

BTW other folks please feel free to join in... fun as it is, this is about all of our thoughts not jsut mine and infallables

T.

[Shanester]

I am considering banning all those that don't agree with me. Oh wait, I am not a member of S.H.I.E.L.D.

[Amazing.JL]

I'm with Cap A on this Joe Q conspiracy.

===========================

btw give it up, this is all fantasy and makes some arguments redundant to contest.

[infallible]

And if Galactus wanted to settle down in Boston, then I'd expect him to register, too.

Lol this made me laugh out loud....I had a mental image of him siting down in a BIG comfy chair and the doorbell going and him sighing and thinking "oh boy not shield again...."!

Trouble with him is that you can't have an all you can eat buffet with Galactus in town. (Plus, he keeps calling all the waiters "herald". "Herald, Galactus needs more iced tea." "Herald, there are no more egg rolls on the buffet." Ugh!)

I think that the biggest differences we have here are that you see it as accountability and I see it as persecution, I'd say that 99% of these heroes are accountable by their very nature and do try their best to not make stupid mistakes that kill or cause unessicary damage. Accountable is very different from persecuted, those who dont want to sign up with the goverments schemes shouldn't have people chasing them out of the country.

Again, I gotta ask... Is it persecution to require doctors to be licensed? Is it persecution to require a license to drive? Or any of the other commonplace licenses that I mentioned? I make a choice to drive, so I'm licensed. A hero makes a choice to use his powers, so he's registered. That's not persecution. It's great to think that heroes can be accountable to themselves, but that really doesn't mean much. How many times have heroes gone bad? I'm not saying that they're irresponsible and that they wantonly destroy and maim, but things can happen. I think it's wrong for them to put Speedball in prison, but I think it's good that someone's watching over things. They need an objective agency watching over them. I think SHIELD is a pretty good agency to do that. I really don't see anyone being persecuted here, especially because it is not unreasonable for these guys to be held responsible for what they do. Speedball shouldn't be in jail, but he should have gone to court. It's fine to say that they can hold themselves responsible, but that just can't hold water in a society of laws. Individuals have to have an objective system upon which to resolve differences. If some non-powered individual hits you with his car, you want a way to address that with him. Why is it different for a super-powered individual?

I think we are going to have to dissagree that Spiderman has a choice in what he does, his life has proven to him that if he doesn't use his powers 'for good' innocent people get hurt.... and therefore morally he has no choice... you never answered my question about if you had those powers could you just sit on your hands and not use them knowing you could be saving lives or worse not saving lives by not using them... Because of the Act, Heroes are going to be labelled 'negligent' for not responding to some "crisis" now that they are outed?

Either way, Peter has the choice. It may not be a savory choice, but he does have the choice. Just like all the rest have a choice. There is no moral obligation for Peter to risk his own well-being for others. If he chooses to do so, then that's good of him, but he's not required to do so. Heroes can be labled as negligent already. Registration doesn't prevent that. Just now, they can be called by name. (Actually, not even that. Names wouldn't be on public record unless the hero does it himself (as Spider-Man, Iron Man, and the Fantastic Four have).

How many people has spiderman killed? So why should he be forced to register to the goverment when he has not done anything wrong... If he has done something illegal then surely he should be tried for that, which means he'll be inprison which means he's not fighting 'the good fight' so this act is really just stopping the good guys from getting the job done as the bad guys will pretty much ignore it, oh look another law I broke... ooops!

This act doesn't stop anyone from being a hero, and it's also not just about Spider-Man. But taking your example, let's say that Spidey does do something wrong. What can the authorities do about it? They don't know who he is or anything, so he gets away with it. Is that okay because he has super powers?

Another Question is the point that they must be made accountable for their actions... how is the goverment having them registered (effectively named in a database) going to make a difference. oh look the hulk just killed some innocent.. be a good chap and go tell him off will you...... Yes they have superhero's like ironman but heck if they cant catch the bad guys what hope is there of doing the same for the good guys?

When you're registered, it's much easier to track you down. You're only in costume for a little while. For the other 20 hours of the day, you have a life to lead. If you're registered, and you do wrong, then you can be found. If the police need to ask you about that robbery you stopped, then you can testify in court. Look at when Spider-Man went before Congress with Tony. Nothing he could say could be on the official record. If you catch that burgler, but the police can't prove it, and you can't testify, then that guy's right back out on the street. With registration, you can be a verified witness in court and do some good.

This whole act is supposed to be about accountability... Who are the govement accountable to with all this information? you really dont think that the goverment is beyond putting the screws on 'heroes' to make them do what they want?

Abuse of the system is a potential problem, but not one that should derail it. With reliable hero input (like Iron Man), then the system can be very secure and safe for the heroes. I don't think anyone wants to be made a puppet for the government.

[TBT!]

ok so in summary your belief in this is based on total trust in the agency who are in control... and you said we were supposed to be 'realising' it.

in Answer to your Dr Question....Do Doctors have know nutters who are capable of destroying whole continents wanting to do bad things to them or their family? - you cant make an apples for apples comparison.

Would someone who trained as a Doctor be arrested for saving a life of someone in the street if he didn't have a license?

I think you have the license thing 'about face'.... with 99% of licenses such as docters, driving etc, those are there purely as a certificate to say yes I did this much training and I am seen as competent in the eyes of the goverment. So are you saying that in order to be a licensed hero Cap will have to sit and take a "test" on how to be a hero from shield? or that shield decideds who should and should be able to be a superhero? bearing in mind that these are people who apparently cant track down superheroes without getting them to register - and no he cant be an exception because by the 'law' he needs to be registered and therefore must follow the rules along with everything else....

Should someone have to be registered because they save a child from drowning in a river? doesn't that make them a hero of sorts? If they refuse and go to jail then will that stop people from saving other peoples lives because they are frightened of getting itno trouble?

Where is the line with this registration act?

It's not as cut and dry as "you have powers you need to register".... a lot of comic book hero's dont have powers, ok so you make it "a costume thing".... so great Capt america wears Jeans and a Tshirt..... now it's ok for him to do it??

How do you define who does and does not need to register...It sounds awfully subjective to me...

Also you say that superheroes have normal lives for 20 hrs of the day... dont you think that that's pretty big target area for a supervillian to target? friends, family or just innocent people nearby. You should know that every agency in our world makes mistakes, let along the roller coaster world of Marvel where life is plotted as one long drama, (it's the laws of physics there that someone will steal that info) would you trust total strangers with your details knowing that every villian out there that you've ever pissed knows that the information on who you are is stored somewhere?

T.

p.s. So you have Spideys powers would you just sit on your hands and not use your powers to help people or stop people from doing bad things? ( 3rd strike on this one.... and you're out if you dont answer it this time )

[infallible]

ok so in summary your belief in this is based on total trust in the agency who are in control... and you said we were supposed to be 'realising' it.

No, it's not about SHIELD; all I said that SHIELD was an all right choice to do it. They're not perfect, and I'm not saying they are. Nor am I saying it's based only on trusting SHIELD. Where did you get that?

This is about being able to have a system in place by which to hold heroes accountable. That's all it is. You can't say that you don't see the benefit of that? What about if ole Hulk trashed your house and injured someone you cared about?

in Answer to your Dr Question....Do Doctors have know nutters who are capable of destroying whole continents wanting to do bad things to them or their family? - you cant make an apples for apples comparison.

You're dodging the question. Is it persecution to have doctors be registered? Your argument is that registration is bad because it violates liberties and it's persecution on heroes. It's a logical extension to extend that to other fields. So I'll ask it again: Are you opposed to all registration with the government? Supervillains can attack a doctor that did them wrong just as well as they can a hero.

Would someone who trained as a Doctor be arrested for saving a life of someone in the street if he didn't have a license?

A doctor could be arrested for performing medicine if he weren't licensed. What's your point here?

I think you have the license thing 'about face'.... with 99% of licenses such as docters, driving etc, those are there purely as a certificate to say yes I did this much training and I am seen as competent in the eyes of the goverment. So are you saying that in order to be a licensed hero Cap will have to sit and take a "test" on how to be a hero from shield?

And what about these martial artists that have to register their hands as lethal weapons? The precedent is already set. And I never said that there would be a test. A license is the government saying, "Yes, this person is authorized to do <insert task here>." In a lot of cases, that's because they're trained, but not always. (Though are you saying that some training for new heroes is a bad thing?? I think Speedball could have used some training.)

or that shield decideds who should and should be able to be a superhero? bearing in mind that these are people who apparently cant track down superheroes without getting them to register - and no he cant be an exception because by the 'law' he needs to be registered and therefore must follow the rules along with everything else....

I never said that Cap should be an exception, just as Jessica Jones can't be an exception. So, yeah, Cap needs to register.

Should someone have to be registered because they save a child from drowning in a river? doesn't that make them a hero of sorts? If they refuse and go to jail then will that stop people from saving other peoples lives because they are frightened of getting itno trouble?

This is a straw man argument. It's the superhuman registration act.

Where is the line with this registration act?

It's not as cut and dry as "you have powers you need to register".... a lot of comic book hero's dont have powers, ok so you make it "a costume thing".... so great Capt america wears Jeans and a Tshirt..... now it's ok for him to do it??

Are you kidding? Cap has powers. He's a super soldier! If you have superhuman powers, and you want to fight baddies, you register. If you're not sure, then ask SHIELD, I'm sure they'd be glad to help you.

Also you say that superheroes have normal lives for 20 hrs of the day... dont you think that that's pretty big target area for a supervillian to target? friends, family or just innocent people nearby. You should know that every agency in our world makes mistakes, let along the roller coaster world of Marvel where life is plotted as one long drama, (it's the laws of physics there that someone will steal that info) would you trust total strangers with your details knowing that every villian out there that you've ever pissed knows that the information on who you are is stored somewhere?

How is this different from policemen? Criminals can do the same thing to get revenge on the detective that put them away. But it's a risk to do the job, and it's a choice made by the people in the relationship with the hero and by the hero himself. Registration isn't what's putting Spidey's family at risk, Spidey's decision to be a hero did that.

p.s. So you have Spideys powers would you just sit on your hands and not use your powers to help people or stop people from doing bad things? ( 3rd strike on this one.... and you're out if you dont answer it this time )

I meant to answer last time, but I forgot. Yeah, I'd probably be out there doing something about it. Though I'm not sure I'd be out there as an independant agent. I think being a part of the police or something would make me way more effective.

So, to counter, can you address the following unanswered questions from the last couple posts:

What about being able to testify in court? You want to fight crime, then you have to go all the way with it. What's the point of arresting these guys if they can get out because you can't testify?

Why are superhumans held to a different standard of responsibility than the rest of us?

How can you trust heroes to hold themselves accountable? What if they don't?

Why is it somehow worse for Jessica Jones to be registered as a hero rather than as a PI?

[TBT!]

So, to counter, can you address the following unanswered questions from the last couple posts:

1) What about being able to testify in court? You want to fight crime, then you have to go all the way with it. What's the point of arresting these guys if they can get out because you can't testify?

2)Why are superhumans held to a different standard of responsibility than the rest of us?

3)How can you trust heroes to hold themselves accountable? What if they don't?

4)Why is it somehow worse for Jessica Jones to be registered as a hero rather than as a PI?

1) Why, is it differnt now, superheroes have been putting baddies behind bars for decades... why the need to change it and make up new laws that really only give the goverment extra leverage over people with powers?

2) Next time you can lift a car over your head I'll answer that one

ok the point is they arent the same as us... take thor... he's a GOD... he's has the potential to "do bad" as anyone else.... so Laws cover GODS now? ..... how about taking 'the other GOD' on about things like earthquakes and famine... how do you make him accountable?

3) If they do bad then you arrest them, If the goverment has the resources to chase superheros down wh ohavent registered why not do it like every other law. The words innocent until proven guilty should have meaning.

4) Because she is being forced retroactively to do it. She wanted to be a PI, so registered. There was no registration when she was a 'hero'. Now she's just a mom with a young baby who is being bullied by the goverment to the extent that she has fled the country... Great way to treat your citizens!

I think we are looking at this from two totally different sides..

You're looking at it as 'it is law' I'm wondering WHY it became law...

Ok my turn for Questions...

1) You have hands should you be forced to register them?

Comparison to superheroes: You could use them to choke someone..... Isn't it more sensible to wait until you choke someone? Lets be honest being registered isn't going to stop bad things happenning, if they could stop you from choking someone why bother with registration. The whole choice issue is the same cos you could cut them off, by your previous examples it's not a pretty choice but you it's still as much as a choice as we've discussed for that Parker boy.

2) Bad Guys..... they will laugh at this and carry on as usual whilst the good guys are chasing each other around the park..... thoughts?

3) What do shield/goverment hope to achieve from this?

Accountability is no higher for the people who need policing (the bad guys) , so thats not it. They are spending a lot of time and money chasing down 'good guys' when they know who they are, some are even former shield agents, so it's not about being having access if they do anything wrong.

Don't just parrot because doctors and police are registered we know they are... this is new, you shouldn't just accept it because they made a law up. If they made a law that said anyone with minimates ( or has owned them in the past) has to wear pinkrompersuits so that they can track us to ensure we dont overspend and make the country bankrupt would you be ok with that?

It's about as obvious to me as a brick in the face that this is about controlling these people and using them for thier own ends...

" it's ok Jessica we wont be sending you off to fight dr doom" - Implies that they will be doing that for others... and after doom it will be lets send you on spec ops to the middle east or anyone else that doesn't agree with our policies...

This whole thread is going to be pretty interesting a few months down the line when we see what marvel plans to do with tihs war

T.

[highassroller]

I agree with you TBT.

It's just really strange how all the villians that recently escaped (See new Avengers #1) are just being ignored/forgotten by S.H.I.E.L.D.

If you are willing to gather the Fantastic 4, Iron Man, Ms. MArvel, She Hulk, to crush Cap and friends, than try gathering them to crush the super villians that just escaped.

Unless you believe that a bunch of B list villians can hide better than Nick fury and Cap.

Accountability and the law.... this coming from government? Laws are arbituraly made based on politics.

Think about how stupid this is. Ironman will crush cap's skull in to make a point/stand about accountability and the law? (See Black Panther and Civil War #3) lol

Sigh.... Is Marvel so desperate for plots and stories?

[Jatta Pake]

Does it help the debate to mention that my hands have been registered 'as dangerous weapons'?

Just thought I'd share.

Some thoughts:

Should Heroes Be Made More Accountable? Obviously the public felt so after Stamford. Politicians passed the SRA.

Is The SRA Constitutional? Good question. If the US Supreme Court struck down the SRA the debate would be moot. But there is no evidence to support this would happen; in fact She-Hulk's support would evidence the constitutionality of the SRA.

Will The SRA Solve The Super-hero Accountability Problem? I think we are seeing evidence that it doesn't. In fact, while it may be increasing accountability in some instances, it is creating numerous unintended drawbacks. A super-hero mutiney would encourage me to rethink any support. Alcohol Prohibition was constitutional, legal, and it reduced alcohol consumption. But it also gave us Al Capone and boring parties.

Is The SRA Moral? I think this is the key to Timbos argument.

[highassroller]

I'm a Chinese American and having taken various forms of martial arts over the past 10 years, I am also familiar with this registering of hands as a dangerous weapon. Bad move, buddy...

Did you know that if you ever do get into an actual fight and serious hurt an attacker, they can use that documentation to sue your pants off?

Publically recording the fact that you can be deadly with hand attacks/grapples does not help you in a court of law. Much better to just know you can, and leave it at that.

Perhaps this can relate to Civil War.

Power registering does not stop accidents or lawsuits. If anything, it would just provide superheroes with health and property damage insurance/compensation. Is that worth the possible death and arrest of earths mightest heroes? No.

[drgnrbrn316]

Its getting harder and harder to follow this thread with all the quotes floating around, but I just wanted to say one thing about capes versus cops. Yes, cops wear their name for the world to see, and yes, they make that choice, but you forget that on any given day, you aren't necessarily going to constantly run afoul of the same police officer. With a super hero, it is different. The ratio of heroes versus average people makes it where you are more likely to encounter the same hero should you pursue illegal interests. You'll notice most villains have a set of heroes that they routinely run across. If I got the crap beat out of me and arrested by Officer John Smith on a regular basis, of course I'm going to start resenting John Smith and start plotting on taking him out of the picture.

But, as many of these characters that are known to their villains or somehow still manage to get their loved ones involved in their conflicts, the family safety becomes more of a moot point. The thing that worries me most is the Supreme Power scenario, where you have one government controlling all of the major players. If I'm paying every superhero in the world to work for me, then aren't my rules laws to them? How long until I'm sending my forces after Korea instead of the Masters of Evil.

And ignoring the family safety and "big brother" arguments, its just like stated above. If you make using your powers illegal, rather than reduce the number of accidents, injuries, and deaths, you only increase them. Making alcohol illegal just increased the number of criminals in the US without really fortifying our "moral values". I think its possible to operate as a hero within the law and be able to be held accountable for your actions without illegalizing the usage of your powers.

[Jatta Pake]

I'm a Chinese American and having taken various forms of martial arts over the past 10 years, I am also familiar with this registering of hands as a dangerous weapon. Bad move, buddy...

Did you know that if you ever do get into an actual fight and serious hurt an attacker, they can use that documentation to sue your pants off?

Unfortunately my hands are only registered as dangerous weapons because of my bad joke writing. I have no martial arts abilities.

[infallible]

I'll try to quote less. I just want to make sure that it's clear what I'm responding to, and to show that I'm not misrepresenting what I'm responding to...

So, to counter, can you address the following unanswered questions from the last couple posts:

So, regarding testifying in court: Superheroes have been arresting bad guys, yes, but how often do we see follow up? But if it comes down to the word of the hero versus the bad guy, then the bad guy gets free because the superheroes cannot testify. For big guns like Doc Ock, Goblin, Magneto, etc, you don't need the testimony. But when it's a robbery, arson, or murder, then what happens? Unless there is a huge amount of evidence, then the guy's going to go free.

Regarding superhumans having a different standard of responsibility, you said, "Next time you can lift a car over your head I'll answer that one." To me, this says that they should be held to a *higher* standard of responsiblity. As mentioned in this thread, look at people trained in martial arts. This is as close to a real super power as we have, and these guys are required to register. Why? Because they have to have more responsibility than other people. As an atheist, I doubt Thor's godhood. But even so, he's still an individual just like you or me. His supposed deification doesn't change his status on earth.

As far as arresting them if they do bad, I'd like to re-iterate your "innocent until proven guilty." You can't prosecute someone with a secret identity. I'm no lawyer, but if I were on the defense, my first question would be, "So, officer, how do you know that this is the same person in the Spider-Man suit that did the crime?" That's a hell of a reasonable doubt. You can't prosecute these guys when they hide their identity.

Jessica is hardly being bullied. It's not like SHIELD is threatening to take away her baby or anything, and she certainly doesn't have the stakes of the identity as Spider-Man does. (Hell, Purple Man found her easily enough.)

I also know why it became law: because there is no way to hold heroes accountable when they do wrong. I'm also looking at it from the "why" perspective. Now, as far as SHIELD being involved, that's a "because it's the law" thing, since they're a law-enforcement agency. But I think it's pretty clear why this is a law.

1) You have hands should you be forced to register them?

If you're hands can be lethal weapons, then, yes. In fact, that's the current law. And comparing cutting off your hands to not using your powers is about the biggest leap of logic that I've seen. Cutting off your hands does direct physical damage to you. Not using powers does you no physical damage. I don't know how you can say that Peter had no choice but to be Spider-Man. That just doesn't hold water. As morally compelled as he was, he still had the ability to choose.

2) Bad Guys..... they will laugh at this and carry on as usual whilst the good guys are chasing each other around the park..... thoughts?

True, they will. The Civil War is a great time for villains. But that doesn't change the root causes of the law. All the more reason for Cap et al not to be such whiners about this. The laws don't affect their civil liberties, and to claim such is BS.

3) What do shield/goverment hope to achieve from this?

You're right in that everyone, hero and villain, should be accountable for thier actions. But when villains are arrested, their identities are revealed for all to see. Is that some kind of violation of their rights? Everyone knows who Norman Osbourne is. And it is about having access if they do wrong. Not every hero was a former SHIELD agent or associate. I'm sure if SHIELD knew who everyone was, there wouldn't be a need for the law, right? I don't accept it because they made the law up, and the comparison to others (doctors and police) is valid, and I haven't seen a convincing argument why superheroes should be less accountable than doctors and police. You said that "this is new," but it's not new. Registration and licensing has been around since before there was an America. This is a new (and maybe overdue?) application of registration and licensing.

It may be obvious to you "as a brick in the face" that it's about controlling them, but I just don't see that. If a hero wants to volunteer for military service, then that's one thing, but it would be a violation of their rights to send them to fight for the government. Yes, I can see that happening, and if it does, then I'd be right along with the opposition in fighting that. But you're saying it like it's guaranteed, and it just isn't.

This whole thread is going to be pretty interesting a few months down the line when we see what marvel plans to do with tihs war

As usual with the "big events" at Marvel, it'll run its course, then everything will go back to the status quo. I'm sure that Cap's side will win this one, especially since Iron Man's camp is being played as the villains in every book I've read (especially in Frontline).

[infallible]

Yes, cops wear their name for the world to see, and yes, they make that choice, but you forget that on any given day, you aren't necessarily going to constantly run afoul of the same police officer.

That's not accurate. Police are located in a certain area, and they arrest and interact with the same people all the time. Even so, it really doesn't change anything. A criminal can hold a grudge against a detective that he's only run into once just as easily as a supervillain can hold a grudge against his archenemy.

And I agree with you about Supreme Power (or Empire, for a darker take on it). Heroes shouldn't be drafted into military/government service. If they choose to do so (as Cap once did), then that's their business, and their right as individuals. But nobody should be forced to fight by the government, hero or "regular" human.

If you make using your powers illegal, rather than reduce the number of accidents, injuries, and deaths, you only increase them. Making alcohol illegal just increased the number of criminals in the US without really fortifying our "moral values". I think its possible to operate as a hero within the law and be able to be held accountable for your actions without illegalizing the usage of your powers.

Nobody is making power usage illegal. This isn't like prohibition. Even now, when you can get alcohol almost whenever you want, distilleries still have to be registered with the state. Under your comparison, we're still under prohibition! Folks can use their powers all they like, they just have to register with the government. Just like you can shoot a gun all you like, but you first have to register with the government.

[infallible]

Did you know that if you ever do get into an actual fight and serious hurt an attacker, they can use that documentation to sue your pants off?

They won't have a case if you acted in self-defense. Just as you can shoot someone breaking into your home, you have the right to protect yourself. Now, if you just go off and beat some b**** up, then you should have your pants sued off, and they'd have a good case. You're expected to be responsible with your "weapons," just as I expect heroes to be held responsible for theirs.

Power registering does not stop accidents or lawsuits. If anything, it would just provide superheroes with health and property damage insurance/compensation. Is that worth the possible death and arrest of earths mightest heroes? No.

Accidents and lawsuits would indeed still happen, and if a hero were negligent and at fault in causing injury or damage, then shouldn't they be held responsible for that? If a doctor screws up an operation, then he's held responsible. (And I think some insurance for superpowered damages would be good. Presumably, they'd be federally funded as a part of the registration act. I have to imagine that personal insurance for civilians already exists as part of most homeowners policies. Such insurance would probably be much higher in New York. )

[neolego]

Ok, enough. I have the answer to all this. All superheroes should be registered 00 agents. That way, they have the license to kill anyone they want.

kidding..........or am I ?!?!

No, I am....

All joking aside, you guys have been pretty persistant in making your points known and it looks like most everyone disagrees with my first post. After reading though the 3 pages it got me re-checking my answer.

However, I still come to the same conclusion. While I agree it's wrong for S.H.I.E.L.D. to be involded and while I think it should be handled a little differently. I still believe that each "Hero" should be registered and accounted for. It's the only way to make it right. If I wanted to go buy a sniper rifle, I would have to register the gun. It isn't against my civil rights. It's a point of being Accountable to someone. We have to be accountable. A student is accountable to a teacher. A player to a coach. A President to his people. Even a volunteer (like our heroes) are accountable to some sort of Admin. Everyone should be accountable for what they do. We are able to vote in a president in the country and if he screws things up, we can fix that problem the next time. I think it comes down to Heroes being accountable to someone, ANYONE. Right now they (for the most part) are only accoutable to themselves. Spiderman doesn't have to answer for anything he does. As spiderman he does what he wants, when he wants and never has to be accountable for it. What if the Mayor of New York said that he will need to clean all the gross web markings that he makes on all of the New York buildings? Sure, it's a funny thought, but he is not accountable to have to do anything he does want. That isn't fair. If it isn't fair to some guy walking down the street it shouldn't be fair to some guy flying through the sky. We are all created equal and we live in a country that honors that equality. neo