The Politics of Civil War

[AdyCarter]

I'm really interested in peoples thoughts on the whole civil war thing.

Do you agree with superhero registration, and if so why?

(try to ignore the fact that everyone pro-reg is been written like a dick)

To be honest I'm leaning towards supporting it, heck Doctors, Police, Lawyers etc all have to be vetted and trained...

[TBT!]

It's an interesting one and where it started clear cut for me I'm now not so sure. The big issues with reg to me are things like the fact that the reg info is being kept with normal humans (albeit shield).

That means you have supervillains that need super humans to stop them only having to take that info from puny humans, which seems a bit risky to me, to make it work it should be a superhuman self policing policy, in that they keep each other in line and the info stays in 'the community' not with the goverment.

Just a thought.

T.

[neolego]

I would be Pro. Here are my thoughts:

If the heroes just sat around their houses heating up burgers with their powers this wouldn't be an issue. But they are in the lime light, they are on the front of every paper in town, they are the source of most topics. As American's we like to be an informed people. Sometimes we take it to extremes.

Point in case, Lance Bass! Who gives a crap that he is gay. I knew he was gay after their first album came out. That was no suprise to me. However, I thought to myself if I was going to come out of the closet I don't think I would announce it to the world. But, because of the status of the celebrity it needs to be known worldwide. Well, heroes are celebrities of the marvel world and the same rules apply.

In the end, to me, it comes down to choice. When a Pedophile gets released into a new community it is the officials jobs to alert the community. At that point, if I were in that place, I would make a strong petition against it or I would consider moving. Right or wrong, it's my choice as a free American. I think the same rule would apply in the case. If you knew that you lived next door to the Richards and your son plays with Franklin all the time you might think a little differently. In that case you should have the knowledge so you could make a choice what is best for your family.

So yeah, in the short, Vote YES to the Registration act . neo

[Amazing.JL]

I just believe Spider-Man coming out is completely stupid. The last issue of Civil War was out of character for Spider-man. I'm on Captain America's side from a comics fantasy perspective. Marvel just wants to mess up the Universe, This is all Joe Q's crap. Joe Q is completely clueless when it comes to Spider-Man. I really feel like quiting comics.

Sorry: Edited my message a 100 times

[AdyCarter]

I just believe Spider-Man coming out is completely stupid. The last issue of Civil War was out of character for Spider-man. I'm on Captain America's side. Marvel just wants to mess up there Universe, This is all Joe Q's crap.

Thankfully Spidey seems to be realising that too, what with the events of the latest issue of ASM

[Amazing.JL]

I just believe Spider-Man coming out is completely stupid. The last issue of Civil War was out of character for Spider-man. I'm on Captain America's side. Marvel just wants to mess up there Universe, This is all Joe Q's crap.

Thankfully Spidey seems to be realising that too, what with the events of the latest issue of ASM

Yeah we'll see where his twisted handling takes him. You know he will cross over, but already late imo.

==========================================================

At first I felt pro reg if Super Heroes were real.

[Shanester]

I am totally against it. HOWEVER, I am for keeping a database or even tabs on convicted criminals or offenders who are known to have super-human powers or abilities.

Spidey...you let me down bro. I am totally with Captain A.

[TBT!]

I would be Pro. Here are my thoughts:

If the heroes just sat around their houses heating up burgers with their powers this wouldn't be an issue. But they are in the lime light, they are on the front of every paper in town, they are the source of most topics. As American's we like to be an informed people. Sometimes we take it to extremes.

Point in case, Lance Bass! Who gives a crap that he is gay. I knew he was gay after their first album came out. That was no suprise to me. However, I thought to myself if I was going to come out of the closet I don't think I would announce it to the world. But, because of the status of the celebrity it needs to be known worldwide. Well, heroes are celebrities of the marvel world and the same rules apply.

In the end, to me, it comes down to choice. When a Pedophile gets released into a new community it is the officials jobs to alert the community. At that point, if I were in that place, I would make a strong petition against it or I would consider moving. Right or wrong, it's my choice as a free American. I think the same rule would apply in the case. If you knew that you lived next door to the Richards and your son plays with Franklin all the time you might think a little differently. In that case you should have the knowledge so you could make a choice what is best for your family.

So yeah, in the short, Vote YES to the Registration act . neo

Let me try and counter this one Neo,

Your pedophile argument is strong as long as it's someone who is historically known to do harm or wrong, so yes it'd possibly work for the super villians.

However... How would you like it everyone who ever help a grudge against you had access to your personal details? I think that making 'suits' register because they might do some wrong is a bit heavy handed and totally flies in the face of the american 'freedom for all' constitution.

Why not 'police' all people that have pry-bars? One day they might use them to break and enter, why not make it law that you have to register your kitchen knives and cutlery... these could be used to harm someone... think of 'superheros' powers as knifes and forks.... they are tools, ok so they are part of the person but still just tools. It's not the tools but how they are used that should be the concern.

I think the Big Issue here is more about how far do you go to protect 'your country' and how much do you mess with your ideals, beliefs and standards to do that?

Flying in the face of what the country is built on and those rights for EVERYONE surely is as much as a danger to society as someone in a cape.

Just a few more thoughts...

So I still say No to registration

[Jatta Pake]

Why not 'police' all people that have pry-bars? One day they might use them to break and enter, why not make it law that you have to register your kitchen knives and cutlery... these could be used to harm someone... think of 'superheros' powers as knifes and forks.... they are tools, ok so they are part of the person but still just tools. It's not the tools but how they are used that should be the concern.

I started out PRO but now I'm AGAINST. The government plan, while well intended, is deeply flawed.

First, as Timbo notes, you shouldn't have to register pry-bars or equivilant powers. However, people do need to register guns in the United States and they are regulated because they are a far more dangerous than pry-bars. So I would support making the Human Torch register his power to some authority. But this isn't the same as being PRO.

The Human Torch is arguably a million times more dangerous than a human with a gun. However, he is registered with an organization that regulates his activities - the Fantastic Four. So I believe as long as a super-powered person is registered and regulated within a proper organization, that should be fine.

However, I don't believe Shield should have jurisdiction to regulate these super-powered people or groups. Perhaps individuals who don't belong to a group should be registered with Shield or another organization. Given the highly unique nature of the individuals, the U.S. Congress could form a panel of experts which are granted with some regulatory and oversight authority.

The other flaw with the current Act surrounds the definition of who is super-powered. How do you define it? Tony Stark is a regular guy outside his Iron Man suit. And how could you hope to prove Professor X has powers when he can manipulate the minds of any witnesses or people testifying?

So you could say I'm PRO regulation but ANTI registration. Most of the existing groups are properly regulated in their own capacities. If the New Warriors had proper oversight, they would never had been allowed to storm Nitro and the other super-villians. People are right to clamor for greater protections, but the SRA is a terrible tool. The New Warriors acted immorally in my opinion. They had neither the training, expertise, nor authority to break into and enter the residence in Stamford. They were motivated by fame and profits, which in my opinion violates the implied moral code underlying other super-groups.

I'm not certain I agree with Captain America's choice of methods to battle registration. He would be much more effective launching a non-violent campaign of civil disobedience. Imagine the backlash generated by the media when the government has Captain America chained and jailed. He could prove his point and win the battle without fighting a single battle. Americans would support Captain America if he fought for super-human civil rights.

[TM2 Dinobot]

I'm deeply trying to ignore Civil War. Though my local comic provider says it's the best thing that's happened to sales since Origins.

I'm curious though. Didn't they try the same thing in the first Xmen movie?

[Cyc]

I'm No.

At the moment it's just people who put on a mask and fight crime who are forced to join SHIELD, either that or lifetime jail, but it'd only be a minor thing to register any who had powers just in case, make it easier to train them or jail if they do choose to become superheroes/vilians.

In alot of ways it's bringing over what turns me off the Ultimate universe, SHIELD knowing everything and Spidey having the choices of being drafted into the Ultimates or jail at 18...

[highassroller]

Iron Man is so out of character. All these characters are on the proregistration act. *SPOILER* Iron man punches Cap's face in and knocks his teeth out. (Iron man could have used a force field bubble or sonics)

I hope it doesn't just turn out that MAstermind and Xaviers sister are controlling people.

The part that kills me is how much money, time, and energy they are willing to use to hunt down non-registers. This is a would where a recent jail break by electro let loose dozens of super powered maniacs. And instead of hunting them down or worrying about other villians, they wanna fight with each other.

[drgnrbrn316]

I'm against the registration act, with Supreme Power as my reasoning. Perhaps its a bit paranoid to think that all super beings being enforcers of the United States government, but I have to agree with what some of the anti-registration heroes have said. How long before the government starts telling the heroes who is good and who is bad? And with computer theft and computer fraud so rampant in today's society, exactly how would the confidential files listing all of the super humans be handled? I agree that the degree of damages done by inexperienced heroes far outweighs any casualties to stabbings, shootings, etc, but the noble effort proposed in the registration act creates more problems than solutions. Should an inexperienced hero turn up, have SHIELD offer them training or appoint them some sort of super mentor. Should a hero cause unnecessary damages, have them all held accountable, be it through some sort of bonds program, or serving time in a SHIELD facility. I agree that they should not be above the law, but at the same time, they should not be hindered by it as well.

And I agree with the notion that the hunting of non-registered heroes is wasting valuble resources. But, I don't think Cap and the rest still fighting the good fight is working against them. The "good guys" have practically forgotten about the super criminals while trying to hunt down their own kind, so Cap's secret Avengers actually reminds the people of the good that heroes can do.

As for Spidey revealing himself to the world, I'm trying to stay open minded about it. It's something that can never last, but it has opened the door for a lot of his old foes to come back from the dark corners they've been hiding in. I know there has been talks of bringing Spidey back to his "roots" of being an ordinary guy with extraordinary powers, so I'm just waiting to see if anything happens with MJ, Aunt May, or any of Spidey's friends and family. As for Spidey himself, we may see another identity crisis (Richochet, Prodigy, Dusk, etc) where he stops being Spidey for a while. Or we may see the ultimate solution with another clone saga of sorts where all of a sudden Peter Parker is no longer Peter Parker.

I'm impressed with the series so far, and I look forward to see where they go with it. It can either pay off in a good way, or it can turn the universe on its head. We shall see.

[storm 1:08]

I'm deeply trying to ignore Civil War. Though my local comic provider says it's the best thing that's happened to sales since Origins.

I'm curious though. Didn't they try the same thing in the first Xmen movie?

The Mutant Registration Act is different than the Superhero Registration Act, as explained from She-Hulk's perspective in the Daily Bugle Civil War newspaper special. She-Hulk was against the Mutant Registration Act, but is Pro-Superhero Registration.

Her reasoning is that a mutant is born with powers that could enable him to be a superhero. However, a superhero chooses to become one by his own decision to be the first responder to a situation.

[Nestlé]

Okay, I'll bite.

Neo, I think I have to disagree with you... Even if heroes were just heating up burgers the insurance agencies would want to know about it for liability reasons.

No, seriously though... Who cares if your kid plays with Franklin Richards? Protecting your family is one thing, but what you're talking about is discriminating against a family... Not because they're sex offenders but because they saved the world from a 20 foot giant who eats planets and wears a purple dress.

All in all, I'm with TM2 on this one.

I'm DEFINITLY NOT reading Civil war. I only even know about it because it was on The Colbert Report last week. The last few years have proven to me that Marvel has no sense of continuity and I'm sure I'll never buy any of their books again (I am buying Exiles though). In the DC universe at least things change. When the earth is threatened by a a entity that consumes I dunno, space and time it stays in there changing the OUTCOME of their universe.

In Marvel, it doesn't matter if they bring in a "controversial" writer like Bendis to spice up the XMen... Everything he changes will be UNCHANGED in a couple of months.

[infallible]

I can't agree with the "if villains know your identity, they'll come after your family." While it's potentially true, it's not a valid argument in htis case. Every policeman that goes out does so with his identity revealed, and pinned to his chest. If a villain wants to take revenge, then they can do that. Why are these vigilantes held to a different standard than our police, even when they are capable of doing far more damage. And it's not just policemen. All the rest of us go into the world with our identity displayed. People have to be held accountable for thier mistakes and when we do something wrong.

If a policeman oversteps his authority, you have a valid and legal means of addressing that. When a superhero does it, what can you do? Hope another hero stops him, and that's it. How many times has a good guy turned bad? Looking at the Hulk alone, can you imagine how much damage he's done? Damage to innocents and civilians? It's about time someone shot him into space.

The fact is that capes have placed themselves above the rest of us. What happened in Stamford wasn't Speedball's fault, but tragedies like this happen because there is absolutely no external accountability for superheroes. They can't put themselves into a class higher than any other individual, and they need to be accountable for their actions. Registration does not discount their good work, and it doesn't prevent them from doing it. But it does restrict their bad work, which while it is a minority of the time, needs to be addressed.

Frankly, I think Cap is being a big whiny baby because his elevated position above the rest of us is being taken away.

[TBT!]

^^^^

ok I think there is a difference between capes and cops..

The police force is by and large seen as a single entity, can you name many of the policemen any comic you read? nope cos the uniform makes them all the same. Iron man or spiderman is a very personal target for super baddies to want revenge on.

There is also the fact that Police Choose to become policemen or women, waking up one day with super powers cos you were bitten by a spider and then guilted into a life of fighting crime cos your uncle died is not a lifestyle choice.

"registration doesn't stop them from doing it"

See I think it does, do you save that persons life and risk getting put away or getting in trouble for collateral damage, do you end up spending half the time filling in admisitrivia because you dented lamppost while stopping a robbery etc.. That stuff shouldn't matter to people who have saved the planet or universe on a regualr basis.

T.

[highassroller]

Isn't it retarded how a Superhero will be monitored by S.H.I.E.L.D. while beating up villians or bad guys, than sheild sends in a bunch of agents to beat and catch them?

Where were the agents while shit was going down in the first place?

If survelience is sooo good that smart and secret forces under cap and fury can be easily found, than why aren't they spending this time catching all the super villians that recently escaped?

Stopping all Superheroes seems like more work and energy than is really neccessary.

I agree, Civil War destroys about 100 years of continuity. Iron man trying to kill Cap?

[Nestlé]

Infallible, I think the difference between Cops and Superguys is simply this:

Like Tim just said, no Cop is THAT tough that a criminal needs tot ake it out on their family.

Those that are?

Umm, have you seen how many times terrorists have gone after Arnold's family in movies? Like a ZILLION. :o

[Danny]

In City of Heroes (the game), as soon as you have created your character they are registered with Paragon City as a superhero:

Proximity's ID

In roleplay terms, I guess that would stop you being a vigilante or whatever because despite what you have in your biography you are still officially sanctioned. There are History plaques to be found that tell you how registration came to be.

For the Marvel Universe, I think there are arguments for and against registration. I can't see why Cap is so much against it. However, what bugs me, like HAR and Cyc have alluded to, is the amount of influence SHIELD has in this. It's just wrong. SHIELD should be working WITH the heroes not against them.

[infallible]

ok I think there is a difference between capes and cops..

The police force is by and large seen as a single entity, can you name many of the policemen any comic you read? nope cos the uniform makes them all the same. Iron man or spiderman is a very personal target for super baddies to want revenge on.

I'm not talking about revenge on the police in general, I'm talking about revenge on a single officer. I don't think it's unreasonable for me not to know the names of several officers in a book about superheroes, but if you look at something like Gotham Central (DC, I know), you know many officers' names, and see revenge being taken out on them personally. Even supervillains will take revenge on a policeman. It happens, and police put their identity on the line because they have to be held accountable.

There is also the fact that Police Choose to become policemen or women, waking up one day with super powers cos you were bitten by a spider and then guilted into a life of fighting crime cos your uncle died is not a lifestyle choice.

Capes make the choice, as well. Peter didn't have to put on the costume, just as the police don't have to join the force. But if you do choose to use your powers, then you have to be accountable for your actions, just as I have to be accountable whenever I get into my car. To use Spider-Man's own mantra: If you accept the power, you accept the responsiblity for it. That responsibility isn't just for doing good, it's for fessing up when you do wrong.

"registration doesn't stop them from doing it"

See I think it does, do you save that persons life and risk getting put away or getting in trouble for collateral damage, do you end up spending half the time filling in admisitrivia because you dented lamppost while stopping a robbery etc.. That stuff shouldn't matter to people who have saved the planet or universe on a regualr basis.

While I don't accept your premise about the paperwork, I'm not going to argue it. But even if I do accept it, it still doesn't negate what I said. Paperwork doesn't stop the police from doing their job, or the military. The job still gets done. SHIELD is a pretty efficient organization. I don't see them letting the world be destroyed because Iron Fist didn't fill out form 7824-B.

Registration is accountability. Each of us is accountable for our actions, as we should be. If I lose control of my car and kill someone, I'm accountable for that. If a policeman shoots an innocent by mistake, they're accountable. Are you saying that if a hero misfires his power, and someone dies, that they shouldn't be accountable? Because as it is now, with identities hidden, there is no way to hold them to that standard.

[infallible]

However, what bugs me, like HAR and Cyc have alluded to, is the amount of influence SHIELD has in this. It's just wrong. SHIELD should be working WITH the heroes not against them.

SHIELD is working with the heroes. They're working with the ones that are abiding by the law.

[TBT!]

Hmmm I don't buy the 'peter parker could have not put on a costume and fight crime' thing.... the whole Ben parker incident was plotted to make that happen.... Could you just sit on your hands if you had those powers? I dont think so...

Also people who aren't using their powers are being forced to register as well so it's not a matter of choice (see latest avengers for an example). That's simply making people do something because you want them too and taking away their civil liberties and that's what Cap is fighting for.

Sure if Shield wants to get some insurance to cover collateral damage fine, if they want to arrest a 'cape' for killing someone with their powers afte they do it then fine ( and If they are as powerfull as they are portrayed to be then knowing who someone is would be a easy for them to find out making te act pointless) BUT to make everyone register because they MIGHT do something bad is like putting everyone in America on the sexoffenders list because they have the "potential" to commit those acts.

would you want to be put on a list because of what you MIGHT do?

I still say No to the act.... in fact this thread is making realise that it's more about how blurry the line is between upholding an idea and totally perverting that idea to uphold it.

Isn't Shield/goverment doing exactly the thing that it's making everyone register to prevent, abuse of power?

Also how do they define this.. so galactus comes along and hovers over the US... I'd like to see Tony Stark explain his need to register to him!

T.

[Danny]

However, what bugs me, like HAR and Cyc have alluded to, is the amount of influence SHIELD has in this. It's just wrong. SHIELD should be working WITH the heroes not against them.

SHIELD is working with the heroes. They're working with the ones that are abiding by the law.

And actively trying to stop those who aren't registered. What an abuse of power.

[infallible]

However, what bugs me, like HAR and Cyc have alluded to, is the amount of influence SHIELD has in this. It's just wrong. SHIELD should be working WITH the heroes not against them.

SHIELD is working with the heroes. They're working with the ones that are abiding by the law.

And actively trying to stop those who aren't registered. What an abuse of power.

SHIELD is a law enforcement agency. It's not the "Superhuman Registration Act...or Not". It's SHIELD's job to get these guys to register. If registration is optional, then what's the point? And if nobody's going to enforce it, then what's the point?

Registration is the law, and SHIELD is enforcing the law, as is their job. I'm not sure how you could expect them to do otherwise.