Captain America spoiler inside

[antacost]

drgnrbrn316: I'd appreciate that. Thanks. I am a first print stickler when it comes to books I've got a huge run on...

TBT!: You're funny.

[Reideen1313]

Could that be the reason for this image?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v66/reid...tainironman.jpg

That image was proven to be a photoshop recoloring of the real cover, which has "plain old" Iron Man holding Cap's shield.

But a nice theory nonetheless.

Thanks. I didn't know they'd said it was a photoshop job.

[Deadpool]

My guess is that Iron Man in Mighty Avengers is Steve Rogers, and Ronin is Tony Stark.

[Nestlé]

Bri, I know you're anti-DC, but you made a statement on here about "hero-lifespans."

Maybe it's time you checked out a DC comic or 2.

Heroes tend to stay dead there (at least for a long time).

Recently we've seen Bluue Beetle, The Question, SuperBoy & possibly Elongated Man.

[you_will_forget]

It's all part of Didio's master plan - clean up continuity and make sure dead means dead.

Can't say he's passed on all accounts, but at least they seem to be trying.

I've read Tom Brevoort's Q&A on Newsarama (all 5 pages of it) and he doesn't seem to be bothered about continuity. The statement he made was something along the lines of "as long as it fits into the general theme, that's fine" (this to justify the poor consistency of other Civil War titles with Civil War itself).

So yeah, Cap dead. Not a fan of "patriotic" characters myself, but we'll see how it goes. What's the betting he's brought back within a year?

Jo

[Halo11701]

I heard that on the news last night and I said to myself "What?!?" I thought it was something else, so I ignored it.

R.I.P. Captain America, 1941-2007.

[MiniRob]

Jesus Mary and Jospeh How many Major Events can be done i a row, or at the same time!! I'd dig it if the Pay offs were a bit better,Cap Dying sounds like a fix to the unhappy ending of the civil war to me..Either way..with all these events basically Marvel is saying..EAT TIE-INS BITCHES!!

[drgnrbrn316]

I imagine Cap's "death" is just to keep the story interesting post-Civil War. I wouldn't expect wide-spread multi-book ramifications. The Initiative, on the other hand, appears to be a mini follow-up event, as there was a checklist inside the book on what other books you have to collect. Looks like I'll be stuck reading Black Panther a bit longer in the interest of completion.

As for DC, though the characters may stay dead, the characters have never really grabbed my interest, particularly Supes and Batman. With Superman, you get a guy from another world who has practically every power known to man and only one apparent weakness. Yet he continually gets foiled by Kryptonite. You'd think by now he'd have come up with some way of overcoming his one handicap. And Batman, his parents are killed by criminals, leaving him sitting on huge piles of money, and I'm expected to believe that his outlook on the world is so negative that he fights crime and creates contingency plans to handle all of Earth's powers? Now I'm sure there's more to the characters than that, but that's what i gather from an outside perspective and it just doesn't appeal to me. Marvel's characters just attract me better. With Spider-Man, you get someone who gets powers, but learns to be more responsible with them when his inaction causes the death of someone he loves. Cap doesn't come from a luxurious background nor does he have some defining moment that set him on his path. He's just a normal guy who saw a wrong in the world and wanted to do whatever he could to help stop it. For the most part, you get more human characters that are easier to identify with. Your three biggest characters in Marvel come from normal walks of life, be it a high school nerd, a scrawny young man, or just a boy trying to escape his past (Wolverine). Your three biggest DC characters come from an alien planet, a high society life, and princess of some foreign nation (Wonder Woman), which isn't much that I can identify with.

Now I don't say any of that to take shots at those who like DC or those who dislike Marvel, I'm just saying that my own opinion is set that way. If anyone has knowledge of any particular TPBs that could perhaps alter my perception, I'm open to the read.

[newaddict]

I have to say I agree with drgnrbrn316 (on a personal level) about the interest level between DC and Marvel. I never really thought about which I preferred, until I started looking at the new DCD minimates and realized how many of them I didn't know. With Marvel there was the odd one or two whom I wasn't completely up to speed on, but I at least knew the basics. When the DC waves were announced, I realized I knew very little about a few of the characters and almost nothing about the rest. I picked up the DC Encyclopedia and was amazed at how much I didn't know. Page after page of characters I'd never heard of, and then there was the incongruity between what I thought I knew of the character bios and what was the actual reality. I realized at that point that most (if not nearly all) of my DC experience came from the Animated shows which appear to have taken great liberties with the continuity. I began looking through my TPB collections and realized I rarely if ever keep a DC volume - I usual end up passing it along to someone else or trading it away. On the flip side I have every single Marvel one I've purchased and will frequently go back a reread them. Never really thought about it until recently, but that's at least my comic reality.

[TBT!]

Ok just to play devils advocate here...

Rich guy who uses his money and skills to fight crime but is paranoid and likes to have contingency plans for everything.

That description fits just as much Tony Stark as Bruce Wayne.

Let's play comparisons... Wonder Woman and Thor, Superman and Sentry.

DC has figures that are more Iconic, yes but are they less easy to relate to than say a soldier born in the 40's and who has done nothing all his adult life but fight in wars and chase baddies, cos that's pretty much Cap in a nutshell.

Do you really identify with someone who is virtually indestrucable and has big metal claws?

I think the reason you see it that way is your history with Marvel over DC, the DC characters are probably are just as well fleshed out if you actually read and knew the history's, heck I have no idea about the xmen these days, it all went horribly wrong in the 90's and I still cant make any sense of the dif teams/members/continuties.

I read from both universes and like characters from both, I think the DC universe is doing a much better job of being a coherent place than marvel is, the characters albeit larger than life are still perfectly good vehicles for stories, but once again that's down to the writer as much as the character.

As I said i'm just playing devils advocate. Oh and I wouldn't use the minimate lineups for comparison, of course you recognise more of the marvel characters... Spidey and Wolverine make up half the line

T.

[drgnrbrn316]

Yeah, I'm not saying Marvel is without its far-fetched heroes. It's like I said, I've always just been more familiar with the Marvel universe and what I know about the DC universe hasn't really done a lot to lure me in. I'm not saying its bad, its just not my cup of tea is all.

But one thing about the comparison between Sentry and Superman, there is one difference. Superman was born with his powers. Sentry got his by accident. Superman can do anything and pretty much has. Sentry could do anything but is too afraid of his own powers to use them unchecked. He just seems more conflicted, making him more human.

I'll give you points for Wolverine and the X-Men though. The whole mutant thing was getting rediculous in the Marvel universe. We're supposed to feel bad about the mutants for being different, but they have awesome powers and got to the point where they practically dwarfed the human population. And its rediculous the way they write Wolverine by making him too powerful. His healing factor is used too much to bridge gaps between point A and B in a story, but what makes him an interesting character is that he's haunted by his past (even when he wasn't 100% sure of what his past was) and that deep down, he's just a regular guy trying to make the best of what life's given him.

Again, I'm not trying to start a whole DC vs. Marvel thing here. I'm just saying that Marvel has been more approachable for me.

[Jatta Pake]

I agree with TBT. I became a convert to DC due to the C3 Minimates, and I was amazed at the depth. I'll expand a little on your points with the hope of tweeking your interest in DC a little. My favorite DC book remains Hush, although Identity Crisis is probably one of the pinnacle works which includes all of the JLA. I'd recommend those (anyone can pick up and read - you don't need to know DC background).

With Superman, you get a guy from another world who has practically every power known to man and only one apparent weakness. Yet he continually gets foiled by Kryptonite. You'd think by now he'd have come up with some way of overcoming his one handicap.

His other weakness is Magic. Boatloads of DC Villians have exploited this weakness and nearly killed him on occassion. I think Superman struggles most with moral issues that anyone can relate to. He has the power of a god...yet struggles to do the right thing and resist temptation like a normal person. His power alienates him from the rest of the world, yet he maintains his strong moral beliefs. A credit to his "earth" parents ...

And Batman, his parents are killed by criminals, leaving him sitting on huge piles of money, and I'm expected to believe that his outlook on the world is so negative that he fights crime and creates contingency plans to handle all of Earth's powers? Now I'm sure there's more to the characters than that, but that's what i gather from an outside perspective and it just doesn't appeal to me.

I think Batman has such a darkened outlook on life because bad things keep happening to him or those around him. But the "dark" aspect of Batman has overshadowed his Detective side in popular culture since the first Batman movies. He is dark, but he remains obsessive about solving crimes. The good Batman writers make you admire his abilities while at the same time making you feel sorry for him because he has what can only be described as OCD and other mental issues.

and princess of some foreign nation (Wonder Woman), which isn't much that I can identify with.

Wonder Woman is the hardest character to write, hands down. Other DC experts can correct me, but Gail Simone hasn't written WW has she? I think she should.

Now I don't say any of that to take shots at those who like DC or those who dislike Marvel, I'm just saying that my own opinion is set that way. If anyone has knowledge of any particular TPBs that could perhaps alter my perception, I'm open to the read.

I hope no one feels like I'm taking shots. I love Marvel, but I've been impressed with DC since I got into it over the past couple years.

[Energy-Man]

am i mistaken? i thought that the new avengers were hiding underground still. so that means that ronin cant be tony stark. and cap will never really die! that will MURDER marvel comics!!!

[Nestlé]

Yeah, though Kryptonite is Superman's weakness I think we've seen Magic more often. He may have all the powers... Bu that doesn't leave him without his bundle of weaknesses.

Newaddict, I think the POINT of DCD mates is to branch off into the unknown. NO ONE's heard of Ma Hunkel, but whats the biggest complaint EVERYONE has about the Marvel mates? Wolverine & Spiderman!!!

A 1/4 of my vcollection are those 2. Even the characters there USED to be few of (like Colossus) are getting rediculous amounts.

Bri, I think what I am especially liking about DC is that in recent years they haven't felt the need to focus on their main 3 characters. Unlike seeing Wolverine in EVERY Marvel super team DC's biggest books don't even HAVE Bats, WW or Supes.

Take 52 for example. Dc's biggest current run and it focus on Booster Gold (A hack hero from the future), Question (A conspiracy theorist), Detective Montoya (a cop), Elongated man (A Stretchy hero who's wife died recently in comics), Batwoman (not much to mention here), StarFire (A cool version of Lilandra from Marvel), Adam Strange (Your classic Flash Gordon), Steel (A guy with a Hammer), Lex Luthor & Animal man (A guy who can mimic animal abilities).

[Deadpool]

Guys, as really great an argument as this is (which it is, you guys bring up good points, really), maybe this should be in a different thread? Also Nestle, there are only two Colossi. or 16, maybe I counted wrong :tongue: .

[newaddict]

Newaddict, I think the POINT of DCD mates is to branch off into the unknown. NO ONE's heard of Ma Hunkel, but whats the biggest complaint EVERYONE has about the Marvel mates? Wolverine & Spiderman!!!

A 1/4 of my vcollection are those 2. Even the characters there USED to be few of (like Colossus) are getting rediculous amounts.

First of all I want to restate that what I am expressing is my personal experience and not in any way meant to be an official judgment of Marvel Vs DC. It's just what I have noticed in my own life. Now, I understand not every character in the DCD lineup is an all star (i.e. Ma Hunkel) but there were other more "mainstream" characters I really knew nothing about such as OMAC, Power Girl, Red Tornado, some of the GL Corps members, etc. I'm not saying my lack of information means that these are in any way inferior characters, I was just saying on a personal level DC never resonated with me the way Marvel has. And yes, there are many, many, many . . . Spidey and Wolverine mates out there. But in addition to those there were also many other "recognizable" faces in the line ups. Again I'm not trying to create a rift with anyone and not trying to state that one company is superior to another. There have been many fine points made in this topic and many more that could be made.

[Nestlé]

Where would this fit better Dino? The DC or the Marvel thread? :tongue:

Don't take this conversation to heart addict. Cause, really, that's all it is: Conversation.

My brother is into Marvel (but also loves DC) and I'm into DC. There's no right or wrong.

As for some of the characters you've named, well several of them have only come into the lime light recently. OMAC for instance was an OLD character who's become main (with a facelift) in the last year. The GL corps has been dead for years (but newly restarted). Ummm... But if you watched the animated series most of those folks were in there...

And Bruce Timm stayed pretty close to continuity (with the exception of PowerGirl)

[TBT!]

As Nestle says Newaddict, dont take it too heart.

A discussion was sparked and we're simply discussing it, no one is blaming, pointing fingers or getting grumpy ( and like most things here it hasn't degenerated into name calling yet..unlike most of the web )

It's like Ice cream, there are a lot of flavours and everyone has different tastes, doesn't mean we can't try to explain why we like 'Pistachio Pistachio' more than 'Rocky Road'.

T.

p.s. I'm hungry now and want ice cream..... I AM blaming you for that though...

[drgnrbrn316]

Thanks for the input guys. You brought up some points I wasn't really aware of and I appreciate that. It does cast a new dynamic on this foreign universe. I guess part of what made the DCU so unapproachable for me is the lack of exposure for most of their characters. The only real major media exposure seems to go to Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman (cue lists of movies and shows based on other DC characters). I really didn't know a whole lot about anyone else until Justice League hit the airwaves, but I got lost in repeats of that before the Unlimited version hit. I've also gleened a bit about OMAC, Booster Gold, Blue Beetle, et al thanks to Wizard running down some of the latest events in some of their issues, but outside of that, never a whole lot of exposure to the greater DC world. Marvel is just more saturated in the media I guess. I've had knowledge of X-Men, Spider-Man, Captain America, the Avengers, the Fantastic Four, and tons of other characters that have been connected to shows and movies based on those characters. When the DCD mates came out, I had to research OMAC, Star Sapphire, Lex Luthor's armor, and Hal Jordan just to have an idea how to play with the characters with my little brother. We still aren't too sure about any of their powers and limitations though. The only Marvel character I've ever had to research was Mariko.

I guess ultimately, its all a matter of how I was raised. Some people are exposed to English since birth, others are exposed to Spanish. Doesn't make one any more wrong than another, but its harder to jump that barrier the longer you go exposed to just the one. I've always been surrounded by Marvel influence, with barely a taste of DC. Make mine Rocky Road!

As for the original topic (if I remember it correctly), I still say Cap isn't dead, he's just going to spend some time out of the spotlight to see what happens in a world without Cap. If the Initiative is to be believed, he isn't dead yet. I'm sure he has a lot of enemies in the world right now, so Tony's keeping him hidden to protect him until he's recovered from the attack. Bucky, Punisher, or someone equally talented will take up the mantle of Captain America for a while, then eventually Steve will come back in some capacity.

[newaddict]

I was never offended, just wanted to make sure I didn't step on anyone's toes. I like conversations like this one as it can sometimes turn me on to new things I'm unfamiliar with (I learned about the Runaways from reading people thoughts about that one). And I'm not saying DC doesn't have some great characters, I'm just not a familiar as I'd like. In fact if anyone can recommend some good TPB from DC let me know. I have been a fan of the animated series for a long while, but after getting the DC encyclopedia, was a bit shocked. Characters like Brianiac were different in comic form than they were (origin wise) in the series. A lot of the other characters were featured as supporting members, but I really didn't know who they were. Anyway, I guess I wrap it up with to points:

1) I never really took anything in this topic too seriously; mainly wanted to make sure I wasn't offending anyone else's opinions.

2) Please recommend some good DC TPBs that don't require a bunch of background knowledge to enjoy.

Thanks

[Nestlé]

WHAT!?!?!? You wanna talk about the original topic!?!?! :tongue:

Oh yeah... Brainiac...

THAT one is pretty different in comic continuity.

Actually if you own any of the Animated sets on DVD, watch the commentary as they go into detail on what they changed and why. Man, I love those shows. :biggrin:

Oh and those encyclopedias rock! My brother has the Marvel and DC ones.

Anyways, Bri, I agree with you about the big 3 in DC. Bats, Supes and WW aren't my fav. characters. It's the rest of the bunch that I love so much and force you to respect the big 3.

If you're serious about their powers and weaknesses...

Hal is the greatest Green Lantern ever (a title that went to John Stewart in the animated series) As a GL, it means his ring can create solid light constructs of pretty much anything. It depends entirely on their will to do so, however. The rings also have a weakness to the color yellow*

*Gah!!! Paralax is so hard to explain!!!! Paralax is a flaw in the central battery that Hal absorbed and went crazy and killed a bunch of people. Just leave it at weakness to yellow unless someone wants to add.

OMAC stands for One Man Army C-thingy. He was a hero back in the day that got a revisit in the Infinite Crisis when Batman created Brother Eye to monitor Meta Human activity on earth. Essentially he's not that tough (Unless you're fighting a million of 'em) but can mimic a lot of powers, like heat vision (ae the interchangable hands).

PowerGirl is quickly becoming one of DCs most popular characters. Essentially she's Superman w/ boobs. She is Supergirl from another reality who was stranded here during Crisis of the Infinite Earths back in the 80s.

Star Sapphire WANTS Hal. Ummm... That good enough? Probably not.

Lex's suit has Kryptonite blasting gloves and lets him go toe to toe with Supes. He's had that thing FOREVER. Man, that suit is SO late 80's .

Anmy other questions, feel free to ask.

Oh, and Addict Infinite Crisis is pretty popular right now.

Last year Identity Crisis & Hush were pretty Huge.

Other Classics are Kingdom Come (being warned: NOT in continuity... Kind of.) and Crisis of the Infinite Earths.

Also, 52 is almost over and you can already pick up some of it in TPB form... DO IT.

[antacost]

Other Classics are Kingdom Come (being warned: NOT in continuity... Kind of.)

I think you mean: Not in continuity... YET! :biggrin:

[you_will_forget]

I think the big thing to remember in DC is that, generally speaking, Superman and Batman aren't the best characters.

To expand on Nestle's thread - Green Lantern: there has been a GL almost from the start in the 40's. The first was Alan Scott (who got his power from a meteorite he forged into a ring and was most recently a JSA member) up until the 60's, when Hal Jordan was introduced and the Green Lantern idea was changed to be a galactic peacekeeping force. Jordan went crazy and killed all the other GLs (of which there were 3600). He was replaced by Kyle Rayner, who held the title through most of the nineties until a couple of years ago, when Jordan was brought back. John Stewart and Guy Gardner (wave 5) are essentially "back-up" Lanterns. Guy would have been chosen by the ring the first time, but Hal was closer. John was chosen by Hal as his fill in when he needed to go away for a while (I'm hazy on the details as I've not read any of that).

The rings work on Willpower, and can create anything you can think of as a green plasma construct. This allows for a lot of the book's individuality, as each person thinks in a different way (Kyle's an artist, so everything is sketched and drawn, John's an architect, not a Marine like in the cartoon, so everything is built with all the internal bits detailed and all the rivets in the right places, Guy's ring is the only one that leaks). There was a yellow weakness that is caused by fear, but now it can be overcome by facing that fear and overcoming it. The rings need to be charged every 24 hours, which is where the lantern comes in.

Lastly, Kilowog (wave 5) is the trainer for all the GLs. He rocks.

Regarding the "greatest Green Lantern of all Time," it's a title that has been given to Hal Jordan, but is hotly disputed amongst fans. A lot of this is age - Kyle Rayner is the definitive Lantern to many people who've started reading 5-15 years ago, whereas Jordan is for earlier readers and the most recent. Personally, I'm a Kyle fan. It's been said a few times that it is the clearest distinction among DC fans - "who's your Lantern?"

This Star Sapphire is Carol Ferris, Jordan's girlfriend in the earlier stuff. She was possessed by an alien gem (I think, could be fuzzy) that made her evil. She has similar powers to GLs, but pink. There have been a few other SSs.

OMAC is One Man Army Corps. The best place to find out about them is The Omac Project, one of the Countdown to Infinite Crisis miniseries.

Harley Quinn is Joker's sidekick who first appeared in Batman the Animated Series, and has since been incorporated into the comic continuity. She also appeared in th Birds of Prey live-action series.

After that rather long-winded explanation, I'd recommend more of DC's ensemble books, such as JLA, JSA, Birds of Prey, Teen Titans and Outsiders. Most Superman and Batman stuff is pretty bland. Have a look at Rucka's Wonderwoman if you want a good story. It's pretty good.

Mind you, if you want a really good TPB, read Stormwatch: Change or Die. I've always been a Wildstrom fan more than anything else.

So yeah, Cap's dead? Who knew!

Jo

[Reideen1313]

The Colbert Report on Cap's death:

http://www.comedycentral.com/motherload/?ml_video=83437

Hilarious.

[Shanester]

Thanks Reideen, that was the laugh I needed today.