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Watchmen Prequels


Punisher

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Dammit Battlecat, if I start imagining how much Annie doesn't like sand and how he's a person and thinks angels are the most beautiful creatures in the universe next time I see bad-ass Darth Vader appear when I watch Star Wars (not freakin' Episode IV, just Star Wars), I'm gonna be very upset at you. :verymad:

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Sadly it was very apparent that the story Star Wars fans wanted to see was not the story Lucas wanted to tell. What we wanted was more like the Clone Wars series, capped off with Revenge of the Sith. What we got was Jar Jar. Somewhere in the multiverse there's a world where Lucas' spat with the director's guild didn't result in Spielberg not being able to direct Return of the Jedi, giving the trilogy the strong finish it deserved. And on that world, the prequels rocked. Some clever scienist please find that world.

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What kills me about the Star Wars prequels is that I can see how they almost worked. The kernel of what I wanted is there, but it's not quite right.

Kind of a funny thing about Alan Moore, as much as I love him as a writer, his "integrity" often times just makes him look like an asshole. My fear with these stories, even though there is plenty of great talent involved, is that they will be telling traditional superhero stories, which to me is just not the story Watchmen is. Everyone really has to bring something incredibly new to the table, and I'm not sure they can, not in a way that will hold up to the original. If it works, I'm all for it, but if it doesn't, I'm quite against it, which is a big risk when there wasn't a need.

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I think DC did him wrong, and kept it in print continuously to take advantage of that contract loophole. And Moore wasn't particularly foolish to miss the loophole, because back then keeping a comic in print non-stop for 30 years would've been a laughable idea. Even mentioning the rights reversion in the agreement at all implies that it would/should happen after a reasonable period of time, so he'd have a case in court, which may also be why Levitz avoided the issue -- these days Moore has been very clear he doesn't even want the rights back, so really DC can do whatever they want. I agree though Hellpop, it was but one example of many from the big two and their mistreatment of creator rights, but it's still a biggie.

I will probably flip through it at the comic shop just to see the pretty Darwyn Cooke pictures, but Watchmen already has a beginning, middle and end, I just don't see it as this open-ended "universe" like Star Trek etc, with all these stories left to tell. Also the idea that prequels/sequels have no negative effect on the original work rings false to me -- if you're able to watch the original Star Wars trilogy now without thinking of any of the prequel crap, you are way better at compartmentalizing than I am! :confused:

Oh, I don't think DC isn't screwing Moore now, I just don't think that was their original intent. I mean, thirty years ago the idea that a collected edition of a comic book would continue to sell for so long that it would need to stay in print was preposterous, as you said. Watchmen, among its' many other accomplishments, basically invented the "evergreen" graphic novel.

I really can't imagine how these books are going to play out; the inclusion of Azzarello and JMS makes me think they'll be similar in tone to the source material, but Darwyn Cooke? Amanda Conner? I love them both, but they are stylistically so far away from Moore and Gibbons it's impossible to imagine them fitting in. It would be like getting Carl Barks to do a Maus sequel.

And does anyone else think the inclusion of Adam Hughes is a delay disaster waiting to happen? Has he even worked on a regular series since Justice League America? I can't think of any. I hope they've got a LOOOOOONG head start for these books.

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I'm sure Adam will crank out pages for his book as fast as he did for All-Star Wonder Woman. :rolleyes: For that matter, I'm also still waiting for issue #3 of Big Numbers. <_<

I can't help wondering what would happen if this project not only fails but manages to collapse any future interest in the original, making it so unprofitable, DC stops reprinting it and the rights revert to Moore and Gibbons. Would they also acquire rights to the prequels?

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What we got was Jar Jar.

Have you guys noticed that Jar Jar is nowhere to be seen in any commercials/promos/etc for next weeks 3D release. Not that i'm complaining, but i think it's hilarious to think that even the people working on it have had it with him.

But anyways, back on topic.... err..... who watches the watchmen? :blush:

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More importantly, who wants Watchmen Minimates? :thumbsup:

Want, sure. But since the same geniuses that have brought you malformed DC characters in every concievable configuration as "Urban Collectibles" yet canceled DC mates entirely would be incharage of the Watchmen too, I am not holding my breathe. Even a little.

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Im not particularly fussed whar Moore has to say about this nonsense, its just entirely unecessary, and an even more blatant cash in than 'new 52'. As i and miry have said, people will be 'outraged' online, but still buy the bloody things. That is dc care about.

I'd be interested to know which, if any, writers and artist were approached and declined the offer. Someone has to have a little integrity left, right?

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More importantly, who wants Watchmen Minimates? :thumbsup:

Want, sure. But since the same geniuses that have brought you malformed DC characters in every concievable configuration as "Urban Collectibles" yet canceled DC mates entirely would be incharage of the Watchmen too, I am not holding my breathe. Even a little.

I don't think that's true anymore, actually. DC's merch plans seem to have changed radically; I don't think you'll see a situation again where they contract Art Asylum as a studio to design 'mates but distribute them through DC Direct. DCD's done, basically, and if DC 'mates return (and, honestly, I think they are the secret returning license Zach's hinted at) a big reason will be DST's penetration with Minimates into Toys R Us. That doesn't mean Watchmen, of course, but you never know.

Im not particularly fussed whar Moore has to say about this nonsense, its just entirely unecessary, and an even more blatant cash in than 'new 52'. As i and miry have said, people will be 'outraged' online, but still buy the bloody things. That is dc care about.

I'd be interested to know which, if any, writers and artist were approached and declined the offer. Someone has to have a little integrity left, right?

Yes, I wondered that too. I'm surprised that they were able to assemble such a collection of established talent, actually. If I were a pro, I don't think I'd want to go anywhere near this project; integrity aside, it's not hard to see how this could be career suicide. But I also think that I would have a problem working on a property which the original creator has been so publicly estranged. How would Brian Azzarello like it if Vertigo published Before 100 Bullets: Megan without his blessing? And, of course, they can't... in large part because of the precedent set by Alan Moore.

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I guess the thing is, if someone thinks they have a unique and worthwhile Watchmen story to tell, it would be a bigger breach of integrity to not tell that story/share that vision just because it's Watchmen. That said, telling a crap story just because it's Watchmen is worse. So long as the creative forces are actually bringing work that they believe adds to the mythos and theme and so long as they actually pull it off, I'm ok with it. But I'm very hesitant and skeptical about the whole thing. As of now, I don't think these will make it on my subscription list, but I expect to pick at least some of the trades.

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When they revisited stories like Age of Apocalypse, Days of Future Past, Kingdom Come, The Dark Knight Returns, etc, etc, the results were almost always unreadable.

WRONG!

DKSA and ASB&RTBW (from now on referred to as DK:BW) is a work of sheer genius (maybe mad genius, but still genius) and just as readable as DKR. The only problem is the artwork Jim Lee’s work doesn’t suit Miller’s outlandish noir pulp writting style so people look at it assuming it’s a normal hero book like Lee always draws and then the writing seems absurd, and DKSA is just garbage art, I don’t think Miller knew what Photoshop could and couldn’t do and assumed his wife would have more coloring skills or something, and when the art looks that bad no one is willing to give the story a chance.

anyway, I hope this “Before Watchman” BS gets Jim Lee off his ass so he FINALLY finishes Dark Knight: Boy Wonder, they can call it “Before the Dark Knight Returned” since it actually IS a prequel to a classic work as intended by the original creator and release it as a cash-in-tie-in-cash-in!

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As i and miry have said, people will be 'outraged' online, but still buy the bloody things. That is dc care about.

If it's any consolation, I am vaguely intrigued by the idea of the prequels and I'm still not buying them. :tongue:

The way I see it, the problem with the Watchmen prequels comes in two parts: the necessity of extending the story given the self-contained nature of the original miniseries (i.e. "Do we really need to read about the good ol' days of the Minutemen or Rorschach and Nite Owl II fighting crime?"), and the overall impact of the prequels to the legacy of Watchmen itself (its "sacred cow" status among longtime fans, if you will).

On that first point, I'm still somewhat torn on the necessity of telling new Watchmen stories at all. Some parts, like the previous adventures of the Minutemen, might stand a chance if only due to their retraux appeal and how obscure some of their backstories still are. However, I believe it's redundant to tell new stories featuring Rorschach, Dr. Manhattan, etc. due to the generous backstory-related subtext already present in the books. This might be an arbitrary observation on my part though, and it certainly doesn't help reconcile how new stories are going to mesh with Moore's original "deconstructing comics" conceit.

As for the second point, I'm probably not the best person to sound off on Watchmen's "sacred legacy" seeing as I've only recently been converted to the series. I may revisit the old Watchmen movie discussion thread here to collect my thoughts on it, but right now I feel like this is something of a Canon Defilement versus Death of the Author kind of debate.

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When they revisited stories like Age of Apocalypse, Days of Future Past, Kingdom Come, The Dark Knight Returns, etc, etc, the results were almost always unreadable.

WRONG!

DKSA and ASB&RTBW (from now on referred to as DK:BW) is a work of sheer genius (maybe mad genius, but still genius) and just as readable as DKR. The only problem is the artwork Jim Lee’s work doesn’t suit Miller’s outlandish noir pulp writting style so people look at it assuming it’s a normal hero book like Lee always draws and then the writing seems absurd, and DKSA is just garbage art, I don’t think Miller knew what Photoshop could and couldn’t do and assumed his wife would have more coloring skills or something, and when the art looks that bad no one is willing to give the story a chance.

anyway, I hope this “Before Watchman” BS gets Jim Lee off his ass so he FINALLY finishes Dark Knight: Boy Wonder, they can call it “Before the Dark Knight Returned” since it actually IS a prequel to a classic work as intended by the original creator and release it as a cash-in-tie-in-cash-in!

....Batman and Robin painted themselves yellow and beat Hal Jordan senseless......and that's genius?? :ermm:

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When they revisited stories like Age of Apocalypse, Days of Future Past, Kingdom Come, The Dark Knight Returns, etc, etc, the results were almost always unreadable.

WRONG!

DKSA and ASB&RTBW (from now on referred to as DK:BW) is a work of sheer genius (maybe mad genius, but still genius) and just as readable as DKR. The only problem is the artwork Jim Lee’s work doesn’t suit Miller’s outlandish noir pulp writting style so people look at it assuming it’s a normal hero book like Lee always draws and then the writing seems absurd, and DKSA is just garbage art, I don’t think Miller knew what Photoshop could and couldn’t do and assumed his wife would have more coloring skills or something, and when the art looks that bad no one is willing to give the story a chance.

anyway, I hope this “Before Watchman” BS gets Jim Lee off his ass so he FINALLY finishes Dark Knight: Boy Wonder, they can call it “Before the Dark Knight Returned” since it actually IS a prequel to a classic work as intended by the original creator and release it as a cash-in-tie-in-cash-in!

Well, first off, the man's not "WRONG!", he's expressing an opinion. Secondly... he's right, they're unreadable. My own recollection of DKSA was that I was apprehensive about it (since I don't particularly care for Miller's latter day work), but I found the first issue exceeded my expectations. The second issue, though, was as bad as I feared the series would be, and the last issue was just a mess. As for ASB&R, I will admit upfront that I haven't read much of it, but enough to consider it an abomination.

To me, Miller's latter-day Batman work (and I'd include the Batman/Spawn book he did with Toddy Mac) fail on two levels:

1. He's writing a character I don't recognize, don't like, and don't particularly want to read about. And that's not a problem necessarily; after all, one could say the same about the Batman from the original DKR. However, when you combine that with...

2. The man seems to have lost whatever storytelling craftmanship skill he had. Seriously, these are bad, inept comics; if they were produced by anyone not named "Frank Miller", they probably never would have even seen the light of day. Miller strikes me as a guy (and I think the Spirit movie confirms this) that believed his own press, all those claims of his genius, a little too much. He's like a Will Ferrel character in the first half of the movie (the part where he's drunk on his own hubris, before his downfall and humble return).

Miller's latter-day Batman work reads like a hate letter to the character, which is odd because Batman made Miller a Superstar. Not a STAR, mind you, because he was already that, but a SUPERSTAR. Batman made Frank Miller *FRANK MILLER*, and he seems to have enough self-awareness left to really resent it.

Anyway, my two cents. You're welcome to disagree. ;)

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To me, Miller seems to be focused primarily on one-upping his bad-assery, the results being that most of his modern stories are laughable at best. DKSA was just a hot mess, and I'm not really sure how it made it past an editor's desk. It certainly does not make sense as a follow up story to DKR. DKR and Year One are both great, praise worthy books, but everything else in Miller's Bat-mythos is seriously lacking any level of emotional connection, never Miller's strong suit but a prerequisite to a great book nonetheless.

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Anyway, my two cents. You're welcome to disagree. ;)

Good, and I shall disagree! I know most people will think I’m “wrong” and maybe they’re right about that, but dammit, History will prove me correct that ALL of Frank Miller’s Dark Knight books (I’m not counting Year One, Spawn Vs, or Holy Terror! in this only the ones labeled “Dark Knight") are amazing perfectly crafted pieced of pulpy goodness... except for the art in DKSA, history will shake it’s head in disgust at that.

....Batman and Robin painted themselves yellow and beat Hal Jordan senseless......and that's genius?? :ermm:

How is it not? It’s pretty damn funny (and intentionally so I might add), and it makes sense: Green Lantern is weak against the color yellow: you make yourself yellow.

In DKR Batman made Green Arrow a SYNTHETIC kryptonite arrow (at the cost of a ‘fortune and a lifetime’) just so he could weaken Superman enough to beat him senseless whisper “remember Clark, I beat you!” then pretend to die... that’s a less idiotic plan then painting himself yellow? It’s ‘totally cool’ for Batman to carry around a ring made of the one thing that can kill his ‘friend’ in the main continuity for “just in case", but painting himself to be the only thing can stop the infinite power of the Green Lantern is a “stupid idea”? He was trying to send a message just like DKR (the whole stabbing him the throat thing was Robin’s idea and not what GD Bat’s wanted) so he weaken a ‘God’ to his level just to say “you and your friends can’t stop me.” Was the option of meeting him not painting yellow on a roof top and getting his ass kicked but Hal a BETTER method to send his point across?

Like I said, made genius is a form of genius, and yes, painting himself yellow to confront Hal was GENIUS

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At some point Miller, like a lot of his era's "greats", started to believe their own press IMO. Sure, when they started they were visionary, but as time wore on they became clichéd caricatures of their former selves. (See also Shooter, Claremont, Byrne, Moore, among others) Bendis' generation, and their love of over the top violence surrounded by pages and pages of emoting, are quickly heading in that direction too.

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Good, and I shall disagree! I know most people will think I’m “wrong” and maybe they’re right about that, but dammit, History will prove me correct that ALL of Frank Miller’s Dark Knight books (I’m not counting Year One, Spawn Vs, or Holy Terror! in this only the ones labeled “Dark Knight") are amazing perfectly crafted pieced of pulpy goodness... except for the art in DKSA, history will shake it’s head in disgust at that.

I agree with you about the Hal thing, actually. I don't have a problem with that, accepting that you like this version of Batman in the first place, which I don't. :) But I'm glad you like it; at the very least, he's pushing the boundaries. BTW, Batman/Spawn is officially referred to as "a companion piece" to DKR on the inside front cover.

I agree with Miry's assessment about his generation of comic book pros, though. I dunno what happened to these guys. Maybe it's because these are the first real stars to come up in the fandom era? The cartoonists from the Golden and early Silver Age were basically operating in a vacuum; heck, it wasn't until Stan Lee came along that you started to see the credits appear regularly in comics. It's always interesting to read about those old pros going to a comics convention for the first time; the reaction is always the same: "I can't believe anybody cares about this stuff". Most of today's best artists couldn't get work in 50 years ago; guys like Gil Kane and Infantino had to be good AND FAST. What would a guy like Jim Lee do?

Sorry, got off on a bit of a rant there... :blush: Anyway, the first real fan favorite was Neal Adams, and his popularity certainly went to his head. I mean, have you seen Batman:Odyssey? I think these guys went to all these cons, read all these fanzines, and they started to think that everything the do is great, because they did it, like greatness is some kind of intrinsic property. It's the same with many of the guys today, except they're reading CBR instead of fanzines. Hell, it's probably even worse now, because editorial doesn't care, they like pissing the fans off because "if they're complaining, it means the story worked". Which is ridiculous. I mean, Joe Quesada's proud of One More Day! Proud! :verymad: Say what you want about Jim Shooter, but at least he held his creators to a standard!

Err... sorry about that.:blush: Guess I've had that rant built up for awhile. :happy:

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