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ReWatching The Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes


nate_studio

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If it's alright with y'all, can we cut back to just Mondays for a while. I'm getting beat pretty hard over here IRL.

Cool with me if Miry agrees.

Miry is fine with it.

Miry is also pleased to help. Though he's confused why he's suddenly talking in third person.

Seriously, one of the strengths of this show is that you don't have to know anything about Avengers history to enjoy them. Knowing just ads to the fun.

The Beast Wars analogy only works to a point. There's no good Maximal equivelent for Iron Man. But I can see where the overall dymanics are similar.

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just curious, will we continue to converse about avengers in this thread when season 2 airs? and if so, will this thread also be used for ultimate spiderman discussion? (seeing as the shows are supposed to be part of the same continuity)

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I say we move right on into season 2. And like I said, I have no idea if the logistics would work out, but if we could watch the season finale together at C2E2, that would be AMAZING!

And if we have to wait between seasons 1 and 2, I'd rather do Spectacular Spider-Man.

On a side note, does the cast remind anyone else of the BW crew? Specifically the Maximals?

I hadn't tried to compare the Avengers to Beast Wars.... but now that you mention it I'll try. PS- It has been years since I've seen Beast Wars, so I guess I'm a little foggy.

Cap = Optimus - heroic hero in red, white and blue

Iron Man = Cheetor? - charismatic fun guy who's not quite ready to lead?

Thor = ...? Am I forgetting a Maximal? Depth Charge?

Wasp = AirRazor? - girl who can fly?

Ant-Man = Rhinox? - brilliant scientist who would rather not fight (but is a heavy hitter when you need him)

Hulk = Dinobot - rough around the edges with a heart of gold

Hawkeye = Rattrap - sarcastic guy who's great in a pinch

Black Panther = Tigatron - quite, reserved, and lethal

I don't know, man. That's my best guess.

Well, what brought it up was in Gamma World Wasp was almost a dead ringer for Airrazor, and Hawkeye reminded me of Rattrap. It's not a perfect match, and like Miry said, Ironman doesn't fit in. But really if we're doing season 1, especially the first half dozen episodes, I'd say:

Ironman= Optimus

Wasp = Airrazor

Ant Man = Tigartron

Hawkeye = Rattrap

Hulk = Depth Charge

Thor = Silverbolt

Plack Panther = Dinobot

Cap = Cheetor?

See? it doesn't quite fit.

Is it just me or do they show a close up of Black Widow's butt every chance they get? (Not that I'm complaining)

I know :wub: There's almost a Bruce Timm level of cheesecake fan service in this. It's so overt when you look for it, yet so subtle (Okay, maybe Jan wearing a bikini in the snow isn't 'subtle'.) It's a shame this show doesn't have a wider following. This should be the #1 spot like JLU was. Then again JLU had a fan following for 12 years before the first episode even aired.

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Well, what brought it up was in Gamma World Wasp was almost a dead ringer for Airrazor, and Hawkeye reminded me of Rattrap. It's not a perfect match, and like Miry said, Ironman doesn't fit in. But really if we're doing season 1, especially the first half dozen episodes, I'd say:

Ironman= Optimus

Wasp = Airrazor

Ant Man = Tigartron

Hawkeye = Rattrap

Hulk = Depth Charge

Thor = Silverbolt

Plack Panther = Dinobot

Cap = Cheetor?

See? it doesn't quite fit.

Cap = Optimus (natural leader, but feels over his head)

Ant Man = Rhinox (scientist and reluctant warrior)

Hawkeye = Rattrap (rebelious wise guy)

Hulk = Dinobot (dangerous X factor)

Thor = Silverbolt (nobel, old fasion, a bit out of place)

Black Panther = Tigertron (quite, calm, deadly)

Wasp = Cheetor (enthusiastic, gets in over head, but more dangerous than appears)

Black Widow = Black Arachnia (deadly bad girl, but not as bad as she seems)

Ms. Marvel = Airrazor (professional, dangerous, not a part of the group)

iron Man = ????:wacko:

??? = Depthcharge

Best I can do.

I say this thread roll right into season 2. (4/1/12 right?)

I am not sure when Ult. Spidey is launching and truthfully this is the first I've heard of it being in the same continuity as EMH. I would not mind giving it it's own thread, and certainly if it does share a universe we can discuss it when it crosses over. (which if true, makes WatXM's cancelation all the more tragic.)

Related note, I have heard on several occassions this season that Iron Man's personal theme music is the same tune that's used in Nicktoons Teen Tony animated series. It's not "close", it's the same tune, and in his first episode it's even in the same style. So unsubtle my 6 year old noticed. This leads to the question... is EMH Tony the Nicktoons Tony all growed up? Just how shared is this universe they are building?

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I understand that you're going for the cat thing, but Tigartron was a pacifist like Ant Man. That's why I made that connection.

Episode 14. Masters of Evil

Finally, my favorite episode of the lot. Bring on the bad guys! This has been building for a while, and it pays off in spades. Zemo knows just what to do and takes each Avenger down without so much as a fight. He shoots Wasp in the back, has Dynamo squish Tony outside of his suit. Throws Hulk into Jodenheim.

By far my favorite part was Zemo with Cap's shield. There's a sight that should never happen. And Cap saying he needs to clean it. :P Zemo and Abomination going at it was awesome, and it shows why Zemo is in charge. I can't believe his intel was so far off however.

Amora toying with Thor was great. That was all she ever wanted. She's so... venerable in that scene. Again, with those two and Hulk there were hints of Hulk Vs.

Hawkeye had the best lines, as usual. Him and BP actually make a pretty good team, which is strange considering BP is a king and Hawkeye is anything but. His like about having to save the team every week was great, and Wasp's black eye was funny.

Over all, an amazing episode.

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Not trying to give the BW debate more copy than is due, but...

I put BP equal with Tigertron because both prefered thinking over fighting, solitude over being in the center of the group. It was not the specifically war Tigertron disliked, it was civilization. He was never reluctant to fight when he came across the Preds.

On the other hand, Rhinox seemed genuinly tired of all the fighting, and grew more weary as the series moved on. He prefered the roll of scientist and explorer over being an active participant. But when called to action, he laid down the king sized smack down with the CGoD. Kinda like Hank, when he realizes there are no peaceful options or Jan is in danger.

Episode breakdown coming.

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this is a great episode but for me, it marks the point as to when this show went from great to AMAZING, every episode after this was truly spectacular for me, but this is still a great episode with some great nods to the comics and some fun action.

My favorite little thing (which appears a few times throughout the show) is the Taxi Drivers Newspaper, first time we saw it, it spoke of Manthing and Punisher, now we see it reads "Secret School For Mutants?" and "Replaced By Aliens, Baxter Tennants Speak!" i just love little things like that :D

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I could see this thread going in to Season 2 if we get through everything in time. If not, I'd say start a separate thread for S2 with Spoiler alerts while we keep this thread for ReWatching the series. And I'd definitely keep Spider-Man out of this, shared universe or not. It's a heavy enough thread with just one show. I'd love to discuss the new Spidey toon (or ReWatch Spectacular Spider-Man)... just in another thread.

S1:E14 - Masters of Evil

Zemo! Enchantress! Executioner! Abomination! Wonder Man! Crimson Dynamo! Together, they are unstoppable.

We finally get to see the confrontation that's been building since the beginning. Both sides have been forming and now the bad guys make their first move. Zemo has a scheme-o that involves taking out the Avengers one by one. Unfortunately for them, he didn't know about Panther or Hawkeye. They do a great job taking out the rest of the Avengers, though. Thor puts up the best fight, but they are still able to overwhelm him once they take Mjolnir away. They also had a creative solution for Hulk by sending him to fight Frost Giants. Of course, the good guys are able to win the day when Panther, Hawkeye and Ant-Man drop in.

Wow. Who would have expected that sentence?

But it's true. Those three B-list Avengers really save the team and do an awesome job of it. Even Ant-Man has some awesome moments. (Yes I will continue to give Hank a hard time.) Anyway, we get the fight we all wanted to see at the end of the episode. It's everybody against everybody and it's awesome. I honestly wouldn't have minded if they beefed this episode up into a two-parter, but maybe they didnt' want to right after the two-part Gamma World. Or maybe I just like the way this show does fight scenes so I wouldn't have minded seeing a much longer battle between the Avengers and the Masters of Evil. It's funny that the episode description lists the MoE as being unstoppable, because they totally are stopped at the end of the episode. They retreat and we are left to wonder if it was all just a part of a much larger plan (Hint: It is.) Meanwhile, Hawkeye is left to wonder why he always has to save the rest of the team.

Favorite moment:

Black Panther: I am an Avenger. I will meet my end with pride.

Hawkeye: I'm going to meet mine with kicking and screaming.

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The Masters of Evil… man, I loved this episode. I want to say up front I love this episode. Start to finish this was one of the best episodes this season.

But it is in some ways a pale shadow of the story it's partially based on. But let me stick to the episode first.

Having gathered his Masters, Zemo is now ready to make his move, knowing that the team is a member down with Ant-Man still away. This is funny in a way. Heinrich is observant enough to know Hank staid in Wakanda, but didn't notice that Hawkeye and Black Panther had joined the team. Typical Zemo arrogance- he figured he already knew all the answers so quit asking new questions. But credit where credit's due; he had assembled quiet a dangerous group of villains.

I would maintain that they got lucky with Thor. We just saw last episode he can take a beating, if they had not managed to knocked him out quickly, I think he would have beaten them all, hammer or no.

The only member of the Master's who hasn't had a spotlight episode yet is the Crimson Dynamo. Not sure what they are going to say the EMH's Dynamo's origin will be,but he clearly has a beef against Stark. They've called him Vanko, which is nod to the original 616 CD, and also to the villain in IM2. My guess is they'll give EMH CD movie Whiplash's origin. The 616 CD was a product of it's time- a Soviet answer to Iron Man. Though the original eventually defected and befriended Tony, there have been others. The Crimson Dynamo armor has been updated roughly 7 times, with almost twice as many pilots. The current and inarguably the most successful is ex-KGB agent Dmitri Bukharin, who appears to be currently wearing a model based on the fifth design. I could go into a long and drawn out history, but except for Vanko and Bukharin most of the pilots were little more than one note Soviet agents or mercs, some were never even identified.

There is no comics based Dynamo armor that even resembles the EMH version. There are elements of the Ultimates armor, the shoulders are exaggerated versions of the Mk.5's, and the interior helmet is a copy of the Mk.6.

The Masters of Evil as a team are considered the #3 Avengers foes. (Kang and Ultron vie for the 1 & 2 spots) The EMH incarnation follows Heinrich's original formula- a former foe of each active member. In the 616, Zemo gathered the Black Knight(fought Giant-Man and the Wasp), the Melter (battled Iron Man), and Radioactive Man (recent Thor foe). The Radioactive Man was captured in their failed first strike, so he was replaced with the Enchantress and Executioner. But like EMH,Heinrich proved to be a short-sited leader. Heinrich's scheme to bathe the city Adhesive X failed because it never occurred to Zemo that anyone else had discovered a solvent for his supposedly unbreakable glue since he never could.(it also says something about Zemo's evil scientist cred that he spends half a century with that hood glued to his head, when Paste-Pot-Pete figured out a solvent for glue in Pete's first appearance)(insert Paste-Pot-Pete jokes here)Heinrich's Masters dissolve after his death.

Ultron 5,in the guise of the Crimson Cowl, organizes the second group with MoE veterans Radioactive Man and Melter, and adds BP arch villain Klaw and the Wasp obsessed Whirlwind. The Cowl also tries to recruit the Black Knight, not knowing the original had died and a new heroic Knight took up his mantle. Not even mind controlling Jarvis helped this group overcome the Avengers and their new ally.

The third MoE was organized by longtime Pym foe Egghead. Egghead had just finished framing Pym for treason and looking for his next challenge. He forms a new version of the Masters to help him steal money and equipment for a cure for aging. Egghead recruits Tiger Shark, Moonstone, Scorpion and Whirlwind initially. Their first encounter with Avengers ends with Whirlwind and Scorpion going back to jail. They are replaced with the Beetle, the Shocker, and Radioactive Man. The team is single handedly beaten by Hank Pym, who Egghead kidnaps to help his research, and the whole affair ends with Egghead's death.

The fourth was organized by Helmut Zemo, son of the first. I've gushed about this version before. It was the largest MoE to that point, and certainly the most successful. This was the plot that this episode's partially based on. Zemo took his time, took the Mansion when it was unoccupied, and then took out the team one by one as they returned. Or at least that was the plan. The Avengers due win the day eventually, but the Mansion is nearly destroyed, two Avengers hospitalized, three counting poor Jarvis, and the teams' sense of security pretty much shattered. Can't say enough about this story. It's that good. Which is why I said this episode was a pale shadow of it; not knocking the episode,but the Mansion Siege story is just that good. (can I get an 'Amen' from my fellow long time assemblers?)

The fifth group to call themselves the MoE were as forgettable as the later was memorable. A rag-tag bunch of Vault escapees trying to loot the Avengers headquarters during one of the cosmic crisis when the criminals are fairly sure most of the heroes are away. Lead by Doc Ock, they were beaten soundly by the visiting Guardians of the Galaxy (the ones from the 'future') without ever facing the Avengers.

Masters of Evil #6 were again organized by Helmut Zemo, but never went into action as the Masters. Having recruited the Fixer, Beetle, and Screaming Mimi to rescue Goliath from the Kosmosians, Zemo was still contemplating his next move when the Avengers 'die' fighting Onslaught. He hits upon the idea of replacing them by posing as heroes and breaks Moonstone out of prison to help mold their new image. They go on to become the original Thunderbolts, and that's another story altogether.

A new female Crimson Cowl organizes the next few versions of the MoE. This Cowl proved to be Justine Hammer using her father's old contacts and employees for various schemes. The core of her group was Man-killer, Flying Tiger, Cyclone, Tiger Shark and Klaw, but a it's largest boasted 25 super criminals. They did mostly mercenary jobs, though they did try to blackmail the world with a weather machine. Hammer's last group was inadvertently trying to help Justine implement her late father's contingency plan to bring costumed criminals back under his control. Ironically this Crimson Cowl's recurring foes were not the Avengers,but the Thunderbolts. (hence irony)

Ben disclaimed in an early interview that the Hood's gang was a new Masters of Evil,but if they were ever referred to as such in story by anybody, I never heard it. The less I comment on this the happier I'll be. But why credible threats like Madame Masque and Living Laser didn't just blow Robbins' presumptuous head off from the start I'll never understand.

With Helmut Zemo's return to villainy though, a new official version of the Masters of Evils sure to be forthcoming.

Where was I? Oh yes; the cartoon. One of my favorite moments in the whole thing was the wonderfully silver agey bit where the two teams lined up and charged each other. Sure it was cheesy and very "Challenge of the Superfriends", but I loved it anyway.

And yes Hawkeye got all the best lines this episode. Kicking and screaming indeed.

I think one of the reasons this, and the episodes that follow rocked so hard is that for the core cast the introductions are over; we can get on to the story telling.But you guys are right; this episode is the turning point in the show that takes it from pretty good to "Hell Yeah!"

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Yeah, I agree. It was at this point I knew EMH was something special. I do agree that this episode should have been a 2 parter, rather than just rushing thru it.

Something that I failed to mention, this episode is the first with the full roster in the title screen. A nice touch.

And if Nick Fury is so powerful, why is he always missing?! Ugh.

Miry, where can I read that good MoE arc?

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It was called Avengers Under Seige for the trade paperback. It collected issues #270-277 (minus 272) of volume one.

The active Avengers at the time were Wasp (chairman), Captain America, Black Knight, Captain Marvel (Rambeau), and Hercules. Namor had been on the team just before, but left on a personal matter.

The Masters of Evil roster was Zemo, Moonstone, Blackout (Daniels), Tiger Shark, Mr. Hyde, Goliath, Yellowjacket (DeMarra), the Fixer, Wrecker, Thunderball, Piledriver, Bulldozer, Absorbing Man, Titania, Grey Gargoyle, Screeming Mimi, and Whirlwind.

Ant-Man(Lang) and Thor return to help retake the mansion, and recent ally Dr. Druid also came to their aide.

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Yeah, I agree. It was at this point I knew EMH was something special. I do agree that this episode should have been a 2 parter, rather than just rushing thru it.

Something that I failed to mention, this episode is the first with the full roster in the title screen. A nice touch.

And if Nick Fury is so powerful, why is he always missing?! Ugh.

Miry, where can I read that good MoE arc?

i actually know the reason Fury is gone, its based on something in the comics and will be revealed (kind of) in the coming episodes, i wont spoil it, but ill tell you Fury's got bigger fish to fry

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Skrulls. Right.

But he's always gone. How is this man even still in any kind of authority position. I've been reading comics since early 200X and I think he'd been in charge of Shield and actually present maybe six times. Granted, I don't read that much 616, but every time i did, he was missing or kidnapped or fired or in another dimension. Heck, he went missing TWICE in USM, and that was just the crossover tie-in bits.

Why does this man still have a job?

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Skrulls. Right.

But he's always gone. How is this man even still in any kind of authority position. I've been reading comics since early 200X and I think he'd been in charge of Shield and actually present maybe six times. Granted, I don't read that much 616, but every time i did, he was missing or kidnapped or fired or in another dimension. Heck, he went missing TWICE in USM, and that was just the crossover tie-in bits.

Why does this man still have a job?

the truly good agents are the ones you dont even know about it, its how Fury got to his position and why he gets to keep it, also, again i dont want to spoil anything but all your questions will be answered (sort of) and if you've read any comic events from 2007 and on then you'll know where he is

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Well in the 616 part of the answer was always that Nick was the Public Directory of SHIELD. There is usually an executive board above him that is actually in charage. And there are always subordinates working with Fury to manage the day-to-day operations. Back in the day it was Jasper Stilwell, before he was fired it was Maria Hill. Another aspect is that Nick Fury ain't a paperwork kinda guy, and takes every chance he can to get back in the field. It's suppossed to represent the classic man-of-the-people type leader, always wanting to share the same risks as his troops. The end result is under his distracted watch, SHIELD has been repeated infiltrated, or become repleat with internal corruption.

The other Meta-reason is that Nick being pro-super hero gives heroes access to SHIELD resources whenever it serves to move the story along. If Nick is unavailable for whatever reason, then that conveniently denies access to those same resources. So it gives the writer a good excuse if he does not want the hero to be able to just call SHIELD for backup or intel.

And you happen to have come in reading a period where writers have been deliberately trying to shake up the old status quo. So any excuse to not have Fury with SHIELD has been taken.

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Undeadpool, it's good to have you join the conversation! I hope you stick around.

S1:E15 - 459

A Kree Sentry has arrived, heralding Earth's entry into an interstellar war between two alien empires.

This is the first episode to start exploring the relationship between Wasp and Ant-Man. I guess I started off assuming they were already a couple, since that's what I'm used to in the comics, but they never actually said they were an item. It makes more sense now why Wasp could just up and move in to the Mansion and why Ant-Man wouldn't give a second thought to staying behind in Wakanda to study vibranium. Well... even if they were married, I'm not sure Hank would give a second thought to travelling abroad to study something new... So here we have Wasp who is interested in Ant-Man and Ant-Man who is interested in Wasp, but neither will verbalize how they feel. Partially because Ant-Man is too oblivious and pre-occupied. I mean, who wouldn't want a girl like Wasp? I'm not 100% sure what she sees in him, but that's just because I like to give Ant-Man a hard time.

Oh man is the Kree Sentry awesome. I had never seen one before this show and now I know how cool they are and can't wait for the minimate version we're going to get. I'm sure Miry will provide us some good info on these guys and the Kree in general. I'll just say I'm not familiar with them but I really like the cartoon version.

It was small, but there was some great animation in the hallway showdown. Just the little bit where everybody reached for their gun... or hammer... or repulsor beam or whatever. The whole confrontation was pretty cool (love the mix of personalities on the team) but I just really loved that quick montage.

At the end of the episode, we get another of this show's great action pieces. This fight is just cool. The show has definite style and can really show off their heroes.

It was also cool how this episode was able to let Ant-Man take charge for an episode. He definitely wasn't leading the team, but he had the best idea of what was going on and what to do. I know I give the guy a hard time, but he is a very cool character. I just don't dig ants, so that just seems really lame to me. I do really like his struggle between man of science and super hero. It's all the little touches like how Wasp and Carol have the natural instinct to shoot back at the Sentry and Ant-Man just wants to try to communicate/study it. In most shows, the heroes would all just have the same reaction as Wasp and no one would try to stop them. I also like how his power shows up orange when he's shrinking and blue when he's growing. That has nothing to do with what I was talking about, but it really struck me this episode and I don't spend much time talking about Ant-Man so I thought I'd throw it in.

Great episode, but did they ever explain the significance of 459?

Favorite moment:

Marvel saying he can disarm the bomb in 10 minutes. ...but it will detonate in 5.

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What does Jan see in Hank? Intelligent, compassionate, clever, principled, and apparently she thinks he looks good in tights. But since Hank seems immune to her charms, she's trying to figure out how to get him to notice her. In the 616, another part of Jan's attraction to Hank is he is older than her (by at least a decade) and she kinda likes the whole "father figure" thing in him. (some girls do, always seemed a bit creepy to me) But he was never as emotionally strong as she thought.

Your question, Nate, is also part of the answer as to why Hank couldn't tell Jan how he felt. Jan is a flirt, and Hank is just clueless enough about women that he could not tell the difference in how she dealt with him. And because Jan is so much out of Hank's league, it does not occur to him she's interested in him too. So rather than make a move, and risk loosing her companionship he keeps his silence. (I actually watched this situation play out in college: hot party girl, brilliant electrical engineer, both totally smitten, both figuring the other wasn't interested despite constantly being around each other. Weird, sad, and amusing all at the same time.) In the 616, things were more complicated. In addition to the above, Jan reminded Hank so much of his first wife and how in his arrogance he failed to protect her. It was a fear of failing again that lead to Hank's resist Jan's advances despite being attracted to her, And even after they started dating, he did not want to propose to her. This starts an increasing level of buried self loathing on his part, which has disastrous consequences later.

Even more later.

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This episode is in my top five favorites. It features heavily with Jan and Hank and their relationship. I do appreciate Carroll and how she was introduced. Very cool. Always loved her. Mar-Vel is also neat. Very awesome stuff.

As for Hank and Jan. I like how this is going. You can't have a hero beat down his wife on a kids show; that wouldn't play over well. So instead they're going for the emotional distance, adding frigidness to their relationship. Which I still haven't figured out. Are they a couple? Are they not? If they aren't Jan seems rather clingy-touchy-feely. I don't like that.

The scene with the Avengers was indeed great. Once again Jan is the only one who can reel the Hulk in and let him go. She's like his tiny shoulder angel, and he knows it. Between Jan and Banner, Hulk can keep it contained. But when Jan says "Hulk, smash him." with such raw emotion in her voice that made me want to hug her, and Hulk just cuts loose, not just threatening or bluffing, but ready to smash, and Ironman and Thor just reach for their guns and power up, and Ant Man steps in as the rational one, and I made a run-on sentence... That was my favorite scene.

I also liked the Sentery. I once again had a very 1950's feel. Also looked alot like Miazaki's robots from Castle in the Sky.

"I did not need you to catch me" also cracked me up.

But yeah, over all a lot of Wasp love in this episode. I'm pretty happy.

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You can't have a hero beat down his wife on a kids show; that wouldn't play over well.

I know you're going to humor on that one, Dino. But that statement is one of my comics pet peeves. Hank did not beat down Jan. Not pretending he did not hit her, he did. But Hank, in the middle of a complete mental breakdown, struck his wife exactly once, backhanded her had enough to black her eye. Not trying to soft-pedal this, or minimize it's impact on the future of the characters. But it wasn't a beat down.

And as has been pointed out before, Peter did the exact same thing to MJ, in a similar mental state to Hank. Two key differences: MJ was pregnant at the time, and unlike Jan, MJ forgave Peter and stayed with him.

Hank is forever called a wife beater, Peter is not. Go figure.

More opinions and information on the actual episode.

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Huh. Did not know that on either of those two accounts. And actually I wasn't really going for humor. I thought Hank did it twice. I know in the Ultimates he used a can of Raid on her, which was awesome and horrifying at the same time.

An interesting observation. Mar-vel was on Earth studying a "genetic anomaly." Jan rolls her eyes. Another hint to her being a mutant?

Also Carroll is great in this episode. "Okay, I changed my mind. Call your team in." So funny.

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This was why I cringed when the Ultimates introduced the idea of Hank as a generally sick and abusive guy. I knew when I read that scene that it would recolor 616 Hank as being a worse abuser than he was, an undo the literal decades of work writers had done redeeming him as a character. 616 Hank was never, EVER the monster that his 1610 counterpart was.

Not nominating Hank for sainthood either. In the 616, Hank Pym has had four increasingly severe mental breakdowns. The first occurred after the death of his first wife. The second was partially chemically induced, and lead to the creation of the Yellowjacket identity, and was pretty bad. (an interesting tale in it's own right) It's hard to say how bad the third breakdown would have gotten, his mind was in the early stages of the break when Pym was ambushed by Ultron who used his mind control abilities to accelerate matters and bury all of Hank's memories after the Avenger's founding. (Probably one of the best Ultron story arcs)

The fourth break was the most severe, and completely unaided by outside forces. Hank became increasingly irrational, and verbally abusive to Jan who's every action seemed to irritate him. (Jan would later admit that this was partly her fault. She could see her husband was losing himself in his frustrations and despite his repeatedly saying "please just leave me alone for a while" kept hovering over him trying to encourage and support him because she couldn't think of anything else to do. So the two destructively fed into each other until...) As Yellowjacket, Pym had boneheadedly attacked an enemy Cap had almost talked into surrendering and the team was going to bring him up on formal internal charges of insubordination and reckless endangerment. What Hank didn't know is that the hearing was just going to be a formality and his friends planned to talk to him and build him up and help their obviously trouble old friend. Hank got it in his head they were going to throw him out, they never liked nor valued him, and that he needed to "show them all" how cool he was. So he builds a robot, coated in secondary Adamantium, to attack the Mansion during his disciplinary hearing. On this attack-bot Pym adds a secret weak spot, which he can blast with Yellowjacket stingers, save the day, and of course everyone will like him then. Perfectly rational plan. Jan discovers her husband ranting before his creation, and places her hand on his shoulder to try and comfort and reason with him. Hank wheels around and backhands Jan across the face with enough force to stun her. Then Pym launches the robot. Things are going to plan, until the robot snatches the erratic Yellowjacket from the air and begins squeezing him to death before Hank can shut it off. Wasp, who regained her senses and knew of the weak spot from Hank's ranting, has pursued Yellowjacket from their home to the Mansion and she saves the day. Shocked back to lucidity by his near death, an utterly defeated Hank Pym quits the team on the spot and wanders away. Jan throws him out of their house, and begins divorce proceedings. Broke and homeless, Pym is then framed for treason by his old foe Egghead and sent to federal prison. Clearly, a low point. But ironically in prison, Hank begins to get the psychological help he always refused to this point. When all is said and done, and he's finally cleared Hank emerges healthier than he had been in a long, long time.

But still tries to commit suicide several months later. But that's a tale for another time.

But that's it. The story of Hank hitting Jan. The physical abuse and outright craziness was confined to a single issue, but it has become one of the defining moments of Pym as a character. But a lot of people have made more out of it than what it was.

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This was why I cringed when the Ultimates introduced the idea of Hank as a generally sick and abusive guy. I knew when I read that scene that it would recolor 616 Hank as being a worse abuser than he was, an undo the literal decades of work writers had done redeeming him as a character. 616 Hank was never, EVER the monster that his 1610 counterpart was.

Unfortunately, though, this scene in Ultimates did do just that. You see how terrible Hank is to Jan here and then you see the old 616 moment you described and think to yourself, "Oh. I guess Hank is just always abusive to Jan in any universe" whereas you forgive and forget with Spider-Man like you forgive all the terrible stuff Reed Richards has done to Sue. Some of it is just old fashioned, some of it is just soap opera drama to get people to buy the next issue. And then you have what happened in the Ultimates.

I am no comic book expert. Really, I prefer the cartoons most of the time. But here's my quick 2 cents that nobody asked for (yay, internet!). I always thought the Ultimate universe was supposed to be just that - an ultimate version of the Marvel universe. Cutting through decades of soap opera drama and retcons and baggage and whatever and just finding a modern way to freshen up and reintroduce our favorite heroes and villains. Conceptually, I think that was the original plan. However, what we instead got was (for the most part) a trashy, 'edgy', modern version of our favorite heroes and villains where things got mixed up for no good reason and quickly fell in to just as much soap opera drama and baggage. But there was less fun because it took place in a more 'real' universe where characters wore more sunglasses and leather and were just crazy people and bad ideas. Instead of a giant alien guy named Galactus who ate worlds, we got like some kind of big group of robot bugs called Gah Lak Tus which is clearly much more believable.

So anyway, instead of giving us a cool version of Hank Pym like EMH does, we get Mark Millar's version. A true loser who can't fit in anywhere, is a total butt monkey, and tries to kill Jan with bug spray. Why? Because it's more edgy, gritty and real, I guess.

But that's also why I tend to prefer the cartoons. They (typically) cut through the decades of soap opera drama and retcons and baggage and whatever to find a modern way to freshen up and reintroduce our favorite heroes and villians. Look at the 90s Spider-Man and X-Men cartoons. Look at the Timm-verse for DC cartoons. Look at Spectacular Spider-Man. Look at EMH. These are all amazing versions of the characters and stories we love. These are the ultimate universes.

Sorry. That may have ended up more like 5 cents. I got a little carried away.

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Coming from the king of getting carried away on a thought, no complaints here. And you're right, cartoons, when well done, do give you a boiled down version of a character. Sometimes that's for the better, sometime its not. So far it's been good for Hank.

And yeah, the whole "not a relationship" relationship on the show mirrors how Hank and Jan began in the 616. Jan was less subtle about her feelings for Hank, Hank was more hesitant for a variety of reasons most of which I've already stated.

The episode did a wonderful job of introducing the Kree, Mar-Vell, and Carol. And believe it or not the story was remarkably like the comics... minus the Avengers, and very out of order.

Like in this episode, Capt. Mar-Vell was assigned as a spy investigating humanity to assess their potential threat/use to the Kree Empire. And he assumed the identity of Walter Lawson, a recently deceased human scientist assigned to the space program, and his work brings him into constant contact with head of security Carol Danvers. One of Mar-Vell's first public battles was against Kree Sentry 459.

But in the original comics stories, 459 was on Earth long, long before Marvel was even born. See the Kree are responsible for the origin creation of the Inhumans tens of thousands of years ago, and after they had set their experiment in genetic re-engineering experiment running, they left a robotic Kree Sentry on Earth to monitor it. In the modern era, the FF discover the Sentry's hiding place, hostilities ensue and the FF defeat it. This piques the Kree's interest, so they send Mar-Vell, under the command of Colonel Yon-Rogg, on his undercover scouting mission. Instead of a deep space listening post in the middle of nowhere, "Dr. Lawson" worked for NASA in Cape Canaveral, FLA. But, Col. Rogg was jealous of Vell, as their ship's medic only had eyes for him. So looking for any excuse to take out his rival, Yon-Rogg reactivates 459 to attack Mar-Vell, who breaks cover to defend himself and the space base. The press, hearing the monotone Sentry loudly stating Mar-Vell's name during battle, misinterpret this not as an officer's rank and name but as a new superhero called Captain Marvel. The rest is history. Over the course of his earth bound adventures, Carol does get exposed to the energies of the Kree Psycho-Magnetron, which gives Carol her original Ms. Marvel powers.

So you see, most of the story elements are in this episode, but as you say, condensed and simplified.

One of the things that is very different is Mar-Vell's skin color. In the 616, Mar-Vell was a pink Kree, a subrace of the Kree indicating that at some point his ancestors mated with a non-Kree. At the time we meet Marvel, the pink Kree actually outnumber the "pure" blue Kree, though the blues still hold most of the political power. And what the Kree called pink, we call caucasian. But explaining the origins of the Kree, and their various attempts to jump start their stagnated evolution takes a while, so like me this evening, they've just decided not to worry about it.

(though if you'd like, I can try and put something together)

After Hank and Jan, the Hulk/Jan relationship was my second favorite part of the episode. Jan was the first to reach out to the Hulk and include him, and probably was the Hulk's first friend (as far as we can tell in EMH). He is sees her as tougher than the others due, she doesn't seem to see him as a monster. They've developed a real Tough big brother/Scrappy little sister repore and it's fun to watch.

But for all it's goodness, this episode was just a tease of things to come.

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