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wave 75


mav-man
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Detailed thoughts on 75...

Overall... I am always going to be more in favor of new characters over costume variations, with exceptions obviously. The fact that for most of these characters it's at least their second minimates is a bit of a disappointment. The black outfit DD, "Uncle Phil" Cage (can't remember who coined that but I love it), and black suit Danny represented leave me cold as costume designs go, so that isn't helping. The mates are good representations of meh designs for me. And Netflix notwithstanding, I was over the Punisher about 25 years ago.

That said, Moon Knight's newish design is really strong. This is technically Jessica Jones' first 616 minimate (the other one was a Skrull). Purple Man is a welcome surprise. And Ghost Driver is IMO an excellent legacy character who deserved his own minimate.

After literal years of asking for them, we finally get minimate build-a-figures... and folks already don't like it. Quake was on my want list (but let's face it, most of the 616 is on my want list) so I'm happy to have her. And to have her as part of the same wave as Ghost Reyes is a nice AOS touch. Of course, I think we were hoping when BaFs finally came we'd see the return of the 2.5" or 3" minimate for the kinds of oversized figures you get with other scales of toys. But alas and alack Chuck and Co are sticking to their 2" guns.
So does this mean the end of the Army Builders/Chase figures? Will BaFs be every wave going forward, or just as schedule permits?

 

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You will never see 2.5" or 3" Marvel Minimates. The 2" body was created for Marvel, because bigger figures were not allowed. I have never heard anyone suggest that, or I would have reiterated it. Vinimates are similarly off-limits.

I believe the BAF will be a standard feature from now on, but I guess we'll see. Some of our army-builders were reaches, and we've made most of the good ones. Not that we'll never make grunts again, but I think swapping chases for even packs is worth the sacrifice.

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6 minutes ago, DSTZach said:

You will never see 2.5" or 3" Marvel Minimates. The 2" body was created for Marvel, because bigger figures were not allowed. I have never heard anyone suggest that, or I would have reiterated it. Vinimates are similarly off-limits.

Chuck said the same... or at least similar. (since Vinimates weren't a thing then) And it's admittedly been a long time since anyone asked, but I know it had been brought up in some winding, long winded hypothetical BaF scenarios of ages past.

And evening out the cases will make Luke's life easier, so it's all good.

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28 minutes ago, DSTZach said:

You will never see 2.5" or 3" Marvel Minimates. The 2" body was created for Marvel, because bigger figures were not allowed. I have never heard anyone suggest that, or I would have reiterated it.

 

"Never say never." ~ Chuck's motto :timbo:

 

Seriously, get out a ruler and measure the tallest Marvel Minimates. (Start with Galactus.) Get back to me with what you find and concede that this is not about height, it's about scale.

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It is about the height of the base figure. You know what I'm talking about, and what Miry was talking about when he referenced the 2.5" and 3" bodies. You can use "scale" to differentiate between them, but as Miry was advocating for larger characters in the same scale, I do not think it is more accurate to use that term. I will say "the height of the base figure will not change" to avoid any confusion or debate.

If we have found a way to use the 2" base body to give collectors slightly larger and slightly smaller characters, it is due to our designers' efforts to work within our limitations.

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1 hour ago, DSTZach said:

You will never see 2.5" or 3" Marvel Minimates. The 2" body was created for Marvel, because bigger figures were not allowed. I have never heard anyone suggest that, or I would have reiterated it. Vinimates are similarly off-limits.

I believe the BAF will be a standard feature from now on, but I guess we'll see. Some of our army-builders were reaches, and we've made most of the good ones. Not that we'll never make grunts again, but I think swapping chases for even packs is worth the sacrifice.

It's like everything I didn't want to hear. No more army builders? As someone who goes out of their way to try to army build that kinda leaves me bummed with this line now. This is one of the only toy lines where army building is feasible and now we have build a figures taking over that and don't even get any scaled up BAFs. And by having already done all the good army builders do you mean the army builders that people want to charge at  least $7-15 for on the secondary market? The ones I'm sure everyone wouldn't mind a redo of? I'm talking AIM, Hydra, SHIELD, etc.

This doesn't bode well for me. I love this line but some of this stuff just doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I'll just have to try to get customs of bulked up characters. Heck may have to get customs of army builders too if you guys are really cutting back on them for BAFs. I don't even get the point of a baf if it's not a bigger character like in legends. Like can people really not wait for the next wave for a single regular sized character?

Edited by The Scarlet Spider
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Nobody said we'd never do army-builders again. But if we do BAFs, which is definitely something people have asked for, even at the normal size, then I think that will affect the one-per-case variant, which most people have never liked. Armies are still possible, although secondary market price don't indicate overall demand.

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1 hour ago, DSTZach said:

It is about the height of the base figure. You know what I'm talking about, and what Miry was talking about when he referenced the 2.5" and 3" bodies. You can use "scale" to differentiate between them, but as Miry was advocating for larger characters in the same scale, I do not think it is more accurate to use that term.

Advocating is such a strong word... Opining? Speaking wistfully of? Dreamin' out loud? Those might be more accurate descriptions.

33 minutes ago, DSTZach said:

Armies are still possible, although secondary market price don't indicate overall demand.

Clearly this you've not tried to find the AIM Soldier, first Hydra soldier, Skrull warrior, or Multiple Man in high numbers without needing pre-approval for a second mortgage. (although admittedly the "Stone Men of Saturn" didn't create nearly the same demand)

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Are there any other waves with BaFs already planned?

I'd still like to see army builders, but less of them doesn't sound like a bad thing to me. I'd still like to see updates of some older ones, but the only new army builder I can think of that I'd like to see would be Warwolves. Unique characters are always more interesting to me than army builders, anyway.

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I'm surprised people were actually expecting the BAF concept would mean larger minimates. If there's one thing that's been clear over the last few years (at least since the first bulked-up figure) it's that we're not getting a larger minimate body in the Marvel line and probably anywhere else. Even Hasbro barely does really large characters as BAFs these days.

There's a definite drop off in appeal for army builders after some of the most popular (S.H.I.E.L.D, HYDRA, AIM, The Hand, Skrulls) but I hope they can stay a significant part of the line. I don't know why short-packed variants and army builders are something that has to go together though.

If secondary market prices aren't a perfect indicator of demand they certainly correlate with it.

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Again, a looooooooong time ago, before even army builders were a thing, and folks were wishlisting about BaFs, a desire for bigger base figures were opined for. I don't think anyone, including myself actually thought that would happen. I am not advocating, I was remembering a very old conversation from back in the day, and thought some folks from back in those days of the list might be disappointed that it is in deed and in fact never gonna happen. That's all. Really. Chuck, Zach, and Matt before him were all always clear it wasn't going to happen. But then they were clear for a long time that the vehicle ban prohibited Goblin Gliders, and then that changed. So I think there has always been an undercurrent of hope there in some cases that someday there'd be a true Giant-Man in the Avengers display and the FF in their Flying Bathtube. Neither is remotely likely, and I'm personally okay with that. At least the Giant-Man part... vehicle ban bugs me still but that's a topic for another thread.

So please, aside from being the guy who remembers a very old conversation, I am not advocating for, nor did I personally ever actually expect, 2.5 or 3 inch Build-A-Figures to be a thing.

Buff- before Army builders, there was always a character in every wave you knew you were going to have two of if you wanted to get the chase. Like Ghost Rider, Loki, or Hawkeye, one got displayed and one automatically went in the parts bin. Changing that from a repeated character to a repeatable character was a godsend. Yeah, it's seemed to run its course. I'd argue there still one or two recognizable armies still undone >cough< Shi'ar >cough< but then I'd go out of my way to buy multiple Lava Men so I'm probably not the one to ask.

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Army builders in chase sets are definitely better than repeated unique characters in chase sets. I just don't think that chase sets are really necessary anymore, for a while it's felt like they're only around to pair the army builder with multiple figures. Even the 2-2 split they used for wave 72 was better than a chase.

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The BAF is a very welcome move from DST for me. while the accessories DST add are always great and often plentiful, sometimes, I have no way of displaying all of them with the figure they come with. I suspect that DST will still add in accessories that are essential for characters, like power signatures or iconic weapons (I don't see them releasing Thor without Mjolnir any time soon (Unowrthy, not withstanding)), but we might see a little less of the multiple generic guns/knives/swords business. Deadpool might come with 2 katanna,  a pistol and a machine gun, rather than 2 katana, 2 machine guns, 2 sai, a revolver and a hand gun. If the wave comes with parts to make Random or Penance or Jack of Hearts, or any other character than can't support a two-pack on their own, then I'm all for it.

I do have a lot of Army Builders still on my wishlist (Multiple Man, the Stepford Cuckoos, Shi'ar trooprs, female skrulls/kree/hydra/etc..), and would like to see DST break them out for an appropriate wave every now and then. By the sounds of things, Zach definitely hasn't ruled them out, so i'm not worried at the moment. 

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1 hour ago, Nessex said:

By the sounds of things, Zach definitely hasn't ruled them out, so i'm not worried at the moment. 

Same. We can't be mad at them for giving us what we asked for when they can. Besides the Royal Family of Inhumans (mostly Crystal LBH), BOE Rogue, say a slight prayer for the Imperial Guard (with Shiar warriors and Lilandra/Deathbird/Vulcan), StarJammers,Mimic, Hellfire Club, Reavers, Gen X and 90's X-Factor they have pretty much annihilated the  X-men want lists most of us have. For Avengers the only major Avengers that have been ignored are Captain Genis and Mockingbird. They pretty much give us what we want all the time. The only things that I am pissed about that I probably will never get over is the X-Factor Red Angel debacle (which was in our favor since one can use an Archangel) and the whole DCu/CW license issue. But that's mostly because I am petty and still can't believe it happened even almost 10 years later. 

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BAFs can be good, or bad, that depends. Does a BAF means less weapons and swords? If so, then cool. Or does it mean less alternate looks leading to figures that could easily be transformed into something else losing that feature? For example, if you were to put out a 90s Ketch GR, with another jacket and pair of pants you could have a modern Johnny. Does a BAF limit that hypothetical scenario?

Q: When should we expect HQ pics of the various new waves and whatnot?

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I still have a ton of wants from the classic X-Men and Avengers, because those are my favourite sides of the Marvel universe, but DST's made some great progress, especially on the X-side. The Avengers have had some nice representation too, I thought the Mandroids and especially Blizzards in wave 69 seemed a little out of place, but the rest of that wave was really great. Still, I'd argue that the classic Avengers need more attention.

And if Genis (who never technically joined the team in-continuity) counts a major Avenger, I feel like Mantis and Swordsman should too, if not characters like Starfox or Sersi.

To be honest, I can't actually tell the difference between 90's Ketch and modern Blaze, but Ghost Rider's never really been my thing. A 90's Johnny Blaze that could turn into 70's GR would be pretty cool, but all they could realistically share would be their torsos.

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11 hours ago, Mirymate said:

Again, a looooooooong time ago, before even army builders were a thing, and folks were wishlisting about BaFs, a desire for bigger base figures were opined for. I don't think anyone, including myself actually thought that would happen. I am not advocating, I was remembering a very old conversation from back in the day, and thought some folks from back in those days of the list might be disappointed that it is in deed and in fact never gonna happen. That's all. Really. Chuck, Zach, and Matt before him were all always clear it wasn't going to happen. But then they were clear for a long time that the vehicle ban prohibited Goblin Gliders, and then that changed. So I think there has always been an undercurrent of hope there in some cases that someday there'd be a true Giant-Man in the Avengers display and the FF in their Flying Bathtube. Neither is remotely likely, and I'm personally okay with that. At least the Giant-Man part... vehicle ban bugs me still but that's a topic for another thread.

 

(And Chuck hated blind bags but Sales convinced him to try offering blind bags. Maybe we should Ask DST Sales. After all, if the retailers demand it, it's more likely to happen.)

 

I just wanted to be clear as to why we're not getting larger Marvel Minimates and everything I've read indicates that the issue is an unwillingness at DST, not Marvel. As with vehicles, evidently some are allowed while others are not. The question to ask is why that's the case.

 

Remember, this agreement was first made back when Toy Biz was making figures. I doubt anyone in this thread has read it but based on conversations others have reported with Chuck, he simply wants to stick with the 2" body across the board, no matter what the property. It's easier. It's safer. He's fine with the contract as is, or rather as he interprets it.

 

So yes, the Marvel contract apparently keeps DST from offering figures outside the 2-inch scale but obviously not the 2-inch height. (Marvel Select notwithstanding.) And the contract prohibits DST from offering products in the vehicles category, most likely because that category is taken by Mattel (die cast) and Hasbro (master toy license) but the definition of "vehicle" has some play, no pun intended. Goblin's glider and Surfer's board can be overlooked as accessories or stands, not the primary product. After all, DST isn't packaging and selling vehicles separately. I'd argue that the same could be said for Ghost Rider's bike, especially if it were presented as a single piece of plastic with no working parts acting as a stand.

 

But again, that's not a boat Chuck wants to rock.

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You will never ever hear me complain about the idea of classic Avengers needing to be made.
No, Genis is not a major Avenger, argument could be made he's not even an Avenger. I'd put him in the same category as his dad, as honorary Avenger at best. Much love as I have for Genis, his sister has a better chance of getting a mate than he does.
You forgot Quasar on your list, Buff.

As to the Ghost Riders...  when Blaze became Ghost Rider again, he stole Ketch's Ghost Rider's appearance, and abilities. 70's GR wielded Hellfire as a weapon, almost the same way the Human Torch wields regular fire. Then along came Ketch's 90's GR and gone were the Hellfire blasts, in came the magic chain and the penance stare. And as I said, when Blaze got his full GR powers back, he looked like Ketch's GR, and got the chain and stare in addition to his old hellfire powers. But Blaze kept his chopper style bike, while Ketch's bike has more of a street bike style.
Minimate wise it's a matter of color...

fig0037flg.jpgfig1634flg.jpg
This is the first GR minimate and the grey pants show it's the Dan Ketch Ghost Rider. The blue/grey jacket/gloves/boots should be black, but often they were colored that way in comics. Now Ketch was eventually separated with his Spirit of Vengeance, but was eventually repowered up. Since Blaze had stolen his look (no in comics reason ever given), the artist gave Ketch the more over the top new one in the second picture. I think they eventually settled on something closer to his basic original GR look, but with blue flames to distinguish him from Blaze.

 

fig0767flg.jpgfig0148flg.jpg
Here we have Johnny Blaze's two minimates. The first is Blaze's classic look from the 70's early 80's. Eventually Blaze and his "ghost" separated. Johnny turns up as a supporting character in Dan's GR book. He rocked the 90's sheik look of the shirt from his old costume, jeans, boots, a ponytail, sunglasses, stubble, and a long brown trench coat. On the right is the look Blaze has sported since his "return". Yep, it's all black version of the first GR minimate. The very different colors of the 2 looks sort of precludes a mate that transforms from one look to another.

And Hail Ivan.

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1 hour ago, BuffaloDelorean said:

And if Genis (who never technically joined the team in-continuity) counts a major Avenger, I feel like Mantis and Swordsman should too, if not characters like Starfox or Sersi.

I understand what you mean as someone who's favouritie era of Avengers was the Epting/Harras run that is trash but it's MY trash I would love to see more of the Avengers from that time frame. What I mean by major Avengers is this painful definition: Did they headline their own title. Of the Avengers we have left that have never gotten a minimate (animated/movie/or 616) t

Swordsman

Moon Dragon

Hellcat * Own Title and technically covered by Jessica Jones Patsy <- splitting hairs I know.

Two Young Kid * Own Title

Star Fox

Dr Druid

Mocking Bird * Own Title

FireBird

Demolition Man

Forgotten One

Quasar * Own Title

Sersi

Stinger Ray

Rage

Machine Man

Living Lightening

Dark Hawk * Own Title

Crystal

Justice

Triatholon

Smasher

Silver Claw

Death Cry

Jack of Hearts

Lion Heart

Jocosta

Manifold

Shang-Chi * Own Title

Female Captain Universe

And then a bunch more but the New Universe guys had their own titles.

 

Although every Avenger isn't represented, the argument can be made that they have gotten to the majority of their C-A listers. Same with the X-Men. The larger challenge now is that Everyone is an Avenger and everyone is an X-Man.

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For me it's less the individual prominence of the character or whether they had their own title, and more about the significance they had on the team. Moondragon and Hellcat are both fairly prominent characters in the Marvel universe, but they were probationary members who never became full Avengers. Darhawk and Machine Man had their own books, but aside from stories with all of the Avengers, between them they were members in less than a half dozen issues.

On the other hand, Mockingbird was a founder of the WCA, and a core member of that team and the Heroic Age New Avengers. AS well as being Avengers villains, Mantis and Swordsman were members of the main team for some time. Characters like Starfox, Sersi, and Quasar had pretty long runs with the Avengers too.

After Avengers Disassembled, too many characters joined the team for me to really keep track of. Shang-Chi is definitely deserving of a minimate, but how important was he as an Avenger?

Edited by BuffaloDelorean
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