Iceman Gets a Retcon...

[MisterPL]

Jean isn't insisting Bobby's homosexual. She said, "But I think you're more... full gay." It's an opinion, one Bobby concurs with in the next panel.

I suppose that Bobby could have gone on living a lie, just like his adult incarnation. I'm sure the elder Jean knew as well as every other telepath he came into contact with. (Not to mention his heterosexual love interests, I imagine.) But apparently they all felt as he did, that "he couldn't handle being a mutant and gay in a society that had issues with both" so no one confronted him.

And that seems to be Jean's point; that in this era, homosexuality isn't as big of a deal. She's helping this Bobby make a different choice, a more honest one for everyone involved.

But she's definitely not outing him to anyone but himself.

[Politician]

Jean isn't insisting Bobby's homosexual. She said, "But I think you're more... full gay." It's an opinion, one Bobby concurs with in the next panel.

I suppose that Bobby could have gone on living a lie, just like his adult incarnation. I'm sure the elder Jean knew as well as every other telepath he came into contact with. (Not to mention his heterosexual love interests, I imagine.) But apparently they all felt as he did, that "he couldn't handle being a mutant and gay in a society that had issues with both" so no one confronted him.

And that seems to be Jean's point; that in this era, homosexuality isn't as big of a deal. She's helping this Bobby make a different choice, a more honest one for everyone involved.

But she's definitely not outing him to anyone but himself.

You're trying to rationalize what comic characters are saying instead of seeing why the real life implications are so dangerous. Bobby was NOT ready to come out. Everything Jean did was wrong and it's easy to point out if you summarize the panel like this:

"Bobby you shouldn't catcall women because you're gay."

Instead of saying, gee I don't know...

"Bobby you shouldn't catcall women because it's sexist and insulting."

Jean avoided the MAIN PROBLEM and attacked Bobby by bringing this up. It literally does not matter that he's only being outed to himself, this is something personal and in REAL LIFE situations, sometimes results in teen suicides. The whole point isn't the actual comic characters, it's that what they're doing echoes real life situations that end in tragedy.

Jean even SUGGESTING that he's not bi is dangerously presumptuous and she has no right doing so. She is influencing a teen who is conflicted and not ready to talk about that. It doesn't always end in the other person agreeing that they are, in fact, full gay.

Regardless of the outcome between two comic book characters, they painted a dangerous picture of confrontation and abuse in trust that really happens with LGBT teens in everyday life with Marvel trying to ignorantly spin it into a positive outcome.

[hellpop]

Yes, confronting someone with the "truth" about their sexual orientation is wrong, plain and simple. Most of us have probably had a friend at some point that "everyone knew" was gay. But most of us, hopefully, know enough not to confront that truth until they can admit it to themselves. Imagine the same scene played out, but without the telepathy cheat, and you can see just how problematic it really is.

[MisterPL]

As a telepath and a concerned friend, I'd expect Jean to know if Bobby was so conflicted about his sexuality that he was ready to take his own life if anyone found out.

I'd also expect Bobby to be smart enough to realize that if he's going to hang around telepaths, especially a mutant also in training to control her own powers, his secret might slip out.

Regardless, telepaths aren't something readers have to deal with in "REAL LIFE." Maybe art will imitate life, Bobby will commit suicide and this will becoem a cautionary tale. I don't think that's what the writers have in mind but the negative reaction they've gotten could certainly steer them into that unintended direction.

[bigvis497]

Even ignoring the sensitive topics that have been outlined, the dialogue in that panel is so embarassingly bad. LOL, kids these days actually read this shit?

"Maybe I'm bi"

"Everyone says that"

"Yeah I know"

"You're full gay"

"Yeah"

"No seriously you're FULL gay"

I keep waiting for someone to say "Yes you are!" "No I'm not!" "Yes you are, na-na-na-na-boo-boo." This is nothing new either, all of Bendis's characters use this back and forth toddler dialogue. Everyone sounds like two kids fighting over an Xbox controller. The fact that the issue was handled in an extremely insensitive manner is just more manure on the fire. HOW IS THIS MAN STILL EMPLOYED?

[arnim zola]

Holy shit are you saying bendis wrote this?!?!?!?!

I used to like Jeph Loeb when he wrote stories like Hush, Then he help run heroes tv show and the ultimate universe in the ground, help switch a good show like earths mightiest heroes into a shit show like avengers assemble, and It would kill me if bendis ends up following suit...

Edited April 24, 2015 by arnim zola

[Kostisfire]

You don't get it. Iceman's FULL gay. Like, 100 % gay. His gayness is purer than Heisnberg's meth. He's reached the maximux on the gayness meter. I saw that on Tumblr and I had to post it. It just goes to say how awful Bendis' dialogue really is. Every character has the same "voice", same mannerisms, etc... Ethics issues aside, the scene had badly written dialogue.

Now, I won't pretend to understand how a person would feel after such incident, because I myself am not a homosexual so I haven't had any experience with this. But, at the very least, this is a very, very akward situation for Bobby, and Jean isn't really helping. "You're more...full gay" Really? What the hell did she read that made her say "full gay"? Is he talking like the token homo in a bad sit-com inside his head? It seems to me that they tried doing something good with outing him, but the execution was lacking. Severely.

As for the "why don't they make new characters?" argument, well, would you take a second look if a C-Lister with 10 appearances was outed? This is supossed to make LGBT people have someone to identify with and Bobby is a regular in one of Marvel's best selling books. Morph was outed as well and now, he's....nowhere to be seen actually.

As for the "reveal" itself, I'm okay with it. Iceman's a big enough name to make a difference, but it's not like he's everyone's favourite character. Either way, I'm all for diversity when it makes sense, and in this case, while it's not 100% "the logical conclusion to Bobby's story", it didn't come completely out of nowhere . Plus, this is Young Iceman, so you can just say that the past that Beast visited was, like, 616.05 and 616 Iceman's still straight.

PS: My vote for next LGBT person goes to Magik. She's dated Cypher, but I don't think she views Kitty only as a friend. I don't know, she strikes me as a Bi person. Then again, she is a hell lord, so she may be into genderless demons....

[Twisted Two-Face]

I spoke openly about how much DC making Alan Scott gay in the revamp made no sense, was openly and actively against the character's history (against his gay son), and was done for the shock value and sympathy vote of "we have a gay character." I spoke openly about how much i hated that. One would assume this would follow suit.

It doesn't. I don't have a problem with Bobby being gay. Why? Because it's been canonically assumed/rumored for decades. Decades. Bobby has always been "maybe he is, maybe he isn't," and at least bisexual. This is not a matter of taking a character with a long established history of being straight, or homophobic, and suddenly flipping it on its heels for shits and giggles. This is Bobby Drake, who has a history of panels like these:

Along with subtler ones. Now, naturally i prefer Marvel and DC to create NEW gay characters. The character should be able to be his or her own person, with their sexuality a part of that. Changing old ones does suck, but this actually makes sense.

As for Jean. She's my favorite comic character; everyone knows this. But this Jean is not old Jean. This is young, inexperienced Jean who just found out about her future and the Phoenix, and her powers are out of wack and violently uncontrollable. She has hasn't been taught how to use them morally yet. Her powers are acting on their own and she couldn't control reading Bobby's mind, and she clearly believes she's in the right by helping Bobby. She doesn't judge him or tell him it's wrong, she tells him to stop lying and hurting. It's a very Jean thing to do, just more reckless in fashion.

[Zexion_Armando]

Magik being sexually anything seems wrong. The girl was raised in Limbo for years, and her current body soul thing is technically only like 2 years old lol.

The issue with old Iceman is we haven't seen him confronted with this. Once they both interact, then we can fully judge the time travel nonsense.

Also, FMK... FM with Teddy. He's a big ol' softy and half kree/half skrull.

[Kostisfire]

Magik being sexually anything seems wrong. The girl was raised in Limbo for years, and her current body soul thing is technically only like 2 years old lol.

The issue with old Iceman is we haven't seen him confronted with this. Once they both interact, then we can fully judge the time travel nonsense.

Also, FMK... FM with Teddy. He's a big ol' softy and half kree/half skrull.

I think Illyana had some sort of "relationship" with Belasco back in her Limbo days, so yeah, being sexually active sure isn't at the top of her priorities list.

[Zak Katz]

^^^^Yeah

F- Northstar. Dude's a skier. Yummy.

M- Iceman. Seems like a nice guy. I think we could build a home (igloo) together.

K- Rictor. Because he's Rictor. Kill Shatterstar too while you're at it.

[hellpop]

Even ignoring the sensitive topics that have been outlined, the dialogue in that panel is so embarassingly bad. LOL, kids these days actually read this shit?

"Maybe I'm bi"

"Everyone says that"

"Yeah I know"

"You're full gay"

"Yeah"

"No seriously you're FULL gay"

I keep waiting for someone to say "Yes you are!" "No I'm not!" "Yes you are, na-na-na-na-boo-boo." This is nothing new either, all of Bendis's characters use this back and forth toddler dialogue. Everyone sounds like two kids fighting over an Xbox controller. The fact that the issue was handled in an extremely insensitive manner is just more manure on the fire. HOW IS THIS MAN STILL EMPLOYED?

He sells. I don't get it either. His dialog is so stilted and artificial, and yet people talk about him like he's some kind of master wordsmith. Seriously, worst writer in comics history.

[bigvis497]

Even ignoring the sensitive topics that have been outlined, the dialogue in that panel is so embarassingly bad. LOL, kids these days actually read this shit?

"Maybe I'm bi"

"Everyone says that"

"Yeah I know"

"You're full gay"

"Yeah"

"No seriously you're FULL gay"

I keep waiting for someone to say "Yes you are!" "No I'm not!" "Yes you are, na-na-na-na-boo-boo." This is nothing new either, all of Bendis's characters use this back and forth toddler dialogue. Everyone sounds like two kids fighting over an Xbox controller. The fact that the issue was handled in an extremely insensitive manner is just more manure on the fire. HOW IS THIS MAN STILL EMPLOYED?

He sells. I don't get it either. His dialog is so stilted and artificial, and yet people talk about him like he's some kind of master wordsmith. Seriously, worst writer in comics history.

There's been worse, but probably none as "offensive" if that makes sense. The funny thing is, I never really hear anyone talk about him as if he's a talented writer. Most people admit he wrote a few good Daredevil and Spider-Man issues ten years ago and that's it.

But Marvel PROMOTES him as a good writer, so therefore he is. He's always attached to "important" events that you have to buy to follow the Marvel Universe. So sheep buy his books because they know they'll miss important deaths or events or whatever if they don't. Because Marvel ALLOWS Bendis that leeway.

How many of his New Avengers issues actually dealt with the the Avengers team? Maybe 1 out of 10? The book was the default Marvel Universe ongoing series for whatever huge event was hyping up the next huge event. Bendis is the reason I quit comics all together. Even when Marvel still produces good comics, they don't sell so they give them to Bendis to ruin. See Guardians.

[Polarboy]

Have they ever stated when exactly in continuity these characters were taken from?

Because if memory serves, the first thing Jean was taught was to block the voices out of her head (depending on which version of the story this was years before the X-Men even existed).

Also it's pretty obvious from just those few pages she routinely roots around in every bodies mind. Illianya, is supposedly the victim of Bobby's evil ways however Jean off hand reveals Illianya's private opinions of herself (which is a far greater violation than calling her hot). She is also quiet happy to mention she has been looking at Warrens sexual thoughts and reveals his orientation.

Nosy bitch is putting it mildly.

The Phoenix saga should have been the end of Jean Grey period.

[Nessex]

Some have argued that ravel should just create new characters that are gay, rather than outing characters that have been straight up till now.
Having a well established and liked character come out does a couple of things that creating a new one does not.

1) It challenges the general publics beliefs about gay people. Rather than meeting someone for the first time as gay and forming an opinion based on that, the public have been allowed to get to know and come to like Bobby on their own terms, and without any bias for many years. I worry that a lot of newer characters that are introduced as gay/bi/lesbian/trans/etc.. don't get as strong a foothold on comics because they carry the weight of bias when they are introduced as gay right off the bat. There are a few exceptions to this, of course.

2) Characters who are not introduced as gay (like Bobby) actually help to show what the world can be like for a young gay man. The public get a small insight into what it is like to live with a secret that scares you so much, you actually construct a whole life around a lie. It's not every gay person's story, but it has been the experience of a LOT of people. While it's amazing to see strong, self-assured, confident gay characters in comics, dealing with the denial and confusion that sometimes comes with being gay can be a powerful story too.

PS: Totally agree with you on Alan Scott, TTF. That seemed like cheap shock tactics.

[MisterPL]

I believe it was Bendis who lamented this becoming such a big deal, insisting he'd hoped it would just fly under the radar. If that's really what he wanted, he should have created a new character.

And that's probably what Bendis would have done if it weren't for the editorial embargo on new X-characters thanks to the Marvel-Fox spat.

[Zexion_Armando]

I believe it was Bendis who lamented this becoming such a big deal, insisting he'd hoped it would just fly under the radar. If that's really what he wanted, he should have created a new character.

And that's probably what Bendis would have done if it weren't for the editorial embargo on new X-characters thanks to the Marvel-Fox spat.

But Bendis made about 5 or so new X-characters (1 of which is gay) just a year ago.

Tempus, Triage, Goldballs, Morph, and HiJack.

[hellpop]

I refuse to believe there is a superhero named Goldballs.

[MisterPL]

I believe it was Bendis who lamented this becoming such a big deal, insisting he'd hoped it would just fly under the radar. If that's really what he wanted, he should have created a new character.

And that's probably what Bendis would have done if it weren't for the editorial embargo on new X-characters thanks to the Marvel-Fox spat.

But Bendis made about 5 or so new X-characters (1 of which is gay) just a year ago.

Tempus, Triage, Goldballs, Morph, and HiJack.

The revelation of an embargo came from Chris Claremont about seven months ago. Since it take a few more additional months to create an X-Men comic from concept to print, the embargo could have been mandated after the creation of these characters. I guess we'd have to ask Bendis.

But to my point, there was no such turmoil introducing a new homosexual character.

[hellpop]

Even ignoring the sensitive topics that have been outlined, the dialogue in that panel is so embarassingly bad. LOL, kids these days actually read this shit?

"Maybe I'm bi"

"Everyone says that"

"Yeah I know"

"You're full gay"

"Yeah"

"No seriously you're FULL gay"

I keep waiting for someone to say "Yes you are!" "No I'm not!" "Yes you are, na-na-na-na-boo-boo." This is nothing new either, all of Bendis's characters use this back and forth toddler dialogue. Everyone sounds like two kids fighting over an Xbox controller. The fact that the issue was handled in an extremely insensitive manner is just more manure on the fire. HOW IS THIS MAN STILL EMPLOYED?

He sells. I don't get it either. His dialog is so stilted and artificial, and yet people talk about him like he's some kind of master wordsmith. Seriously, worst writer in comics history.

There's been worse, but probably none as "offensive" if that makes sense. The funny thing is, I never really hear anyone talk about him as if he's a talented writer. Most people admit he wrote a few good Daredevil and Spider-Man issues ten years ago and that's it.

But Marvel PROMOTES him as a good writer, so therefore he is. He's always attached to "important" events that you have to buy to follow the Marvel Universe. So sheep buy his books because they know they'll miss important deaths or events or whatever if they don't. Because Marvel ALLOWS Bendis that leeway.

How many of his New Avengers issues actually dealt with the the Avengers team? Maybe 1 out of 10? The book was the default Marvel Universe ongoing series for whatever huge event was hyping up the next huge event. Bendis is the reason I quit comics all together. Even when Marvel still produces good comics, they don't sell so they give them to Bendis to ruin. See Guardians.

All of that is what makes him the worst writer in comics history. He's been given the keys to the kingdom and has not measured up. When I say he's the worst, I take his status into account; a guy like Chuck Austin may have written worse comics, but he was never a big a deal as Bendis. You can bet that whatever embargo against creating new characters Claremont talked about, you can bet that it didn't apply to ol' Goldballs (that's my new personal nickname for Bendis. Try it out!).

[MisterPL]

For what it's worth, I'm pretty confident the editorial embargo on new X-characters came from Disney. It wasn't until after the acquisition that X-Men and Fantastic Four characters were removed from promotional materials and merchandising elements being generated by the consumer products division.

[battlecat]

Hellpop, Goldballs' name is meant to be dumb, in-story. He's named that by the other kids, disparagingly, because he has a seemingly useless mutant power. It's like mocking the writer that came up with Frog-Man because it's a silly name. But whatever, rage on...

[hellpop]

That was Stan Lee, BTW.

[battlecat]

I was talking about the Fabulous Frog-Man, BTW, not the Ani-Men character (who I'd never heard of before TBH), so it wasn't Lee, although he did create Leap-Frog and Frog-Man was kind of a legacy version of him, so if my post had had anything to do with Frog-Man beyond him having a silly name, I guess I might've given him some credit. Not that Stan Lee is really lacking in credit for things!

[hellpop]

Ah, you're right, Leap-Frog was his dad. I think Frog-Man was a Tom DeFalco creation. Would have been right around his time on ASM, anyway.