DSTZach Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Oh, it doesn't matter, I was just asking a question. I didn't remember them being married. One more question, totally out of curiosity: are you suggesting that he shouldn't feel guilt? Or that he shouldn't have been in love? I thought you were just unsure of what Jean represented. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rock Steady Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Personally, I found the Logan/Scott/Jean love triangle incredibly forced in the movie and not helped by me feeling as if Famke Janssen and Hugh Jackman didn't have such great chemistry. I felt that plot line was the low point of all the movies. Like, out of all the time Logan's been alive, all the people he's met and knew and watched die, what makes Jean so special? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dr baghead Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 One more question, totally out of curiosity: are you suggesting that he shouldn't feel guilt? Or that he shouldn't have been in love? I thought you were just unsure of what Jean represented. To echo what Rock Steady said: What makes Jean so special? Why does he feel guilt? He’s killed countless other people between loosing his memory and Jean’s Death, and since he stabbed a dude with a poison arrow in “The Wolverine” before his Japanese adventure starts we can assume after her death he didn’t give up murdering either. What makes HER death haunt him? Why does he “love” her? She was with Scott so it’s not like they dated or got to know each other, he didn’t stick around the X-Mansion because being a mysterious loner was more important to him even though he could have pretended to stay “to protect Rogue” so it’s not even like the two of them could have just grown close from hanging over the years. So Wolverine feels bad out of the hundreds of dudes he remembers killing ONE of them was a hot redhead who didn’t mace him in the face. How this ties into my question of how Jean was presented in “The Wolverine”: If Jean is his guilt it means he’s creepy as f**k for obsessing over another man’s wife long term girlfriend, but it also means he’s letting go not only of his guilt but “what never was”, we know she never rolled around in a nightie in the movies with him as it’s not shown or mentioned by any one (and really, if Hugh Jackman and Famke Janssen’s characters are going to the bone zone there’s no way that’s not ending up on film) so this is an invention of his mind. When he’s able to let go of his guilt, he let’s go of the ‘memory’ of woman who never really loved him to save another woman who DID roll around in a nightgown with him AND left her long term boyfriend fiancee for Logan, trading a false one sided love for something that could turn into real love two sided someday or something. If it’s the Phoenix force it’s more clear cut. It knows Logan thought Jean was hot (I’m 90% certain she even hit on him in X3 as Dark Phoenix but Logan rejected knowing something was wrong... but I haven’t watched X3 in years since I don’t hate myself so I can’t be certain) so it’s using that against him begging him to “come join her” is it saying “Hey, kill yourself a-hole! It’s not cool you managed to kill me, so you die too!” and at the end when Logan realizes he can’t keep feeling bad about Jean’s death the Phoenix just up and decides “f**k it, I’ll just come back in a sequel... get you then a-hole” (yeah, the Phoenix force swears a lot...) neither version changes the movie much as either way the only changes are subtextual: Is Logan a total creep or being tormented by the supernatural? Doesn’t matter since the train scene is pretty bad ass and up until the ninja street fight ends it’s a pretty perfect movie (Giant boss level fight ruined it so much, but creep or ghost victim a dumb ending is still going to be a dumb ending) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie Shakespeare Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Maybe the Phoenix force made Logan obsess with jean in the first place. Or maybe Logan is just a creep. Any woman he's with is decades younger than him anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkerbean Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Any woman he's with is decades younger than him anyway. Just like Patrick Stewart Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM2 Dinobot Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Perhaps it is unacquainted love, the most painful kind of love. Here's a woman he could have loved. She possibly represented hope. And he killed her. And now he's left with the Never Were's. Seriously though. Why did the film makers drop the ball on killing Mariko? It was all set up and everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) Because for the particular story being told, Wolverine gaining redemption involved ending the cycle of death. (Er, ending insofar as it negatively affects Logan, that is.) Mariko not dying was important because it shows Wolverine that not everything he touches will tarnish, that his efforts to protect those he cares about are not futile, and that the world is better with him than without him. Couldn't save the bear. Couldn't save Jean. But, hey, he can save this one. But that still doesn't mean he belongs, which is why he had to leave. Sounds like Dr. Baghead and I feel pretty similarly about the movie. It was fun, even if flawed, up until the climax. Robo-samurai was pretty lame. The Jean-Wolverine thing is annoying, especially how it has crept into the comics. I think the minimates were damn near perfect. Shingen is the only one I find lacking. The mate doesn't really look like the character, and the armored battle look would have been cooler. Edited January 5, 2014 by Turtle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx_6 Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 But, he spends more time with Yukio, who is clearly crushing on him. I don't buy the "love" with Mariko in the movie at all, but maybe that is just me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buttheadsmate Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I just finished watching the movie & really enjoyed it.....OK the ending was a bit predictable but all in all I thought it was just fine. Looking through the 'mates (& comparing likeness) now makes me feel quite satisfied...... except the 2 Yukios .....the Urban version is just stunnning whilst the Ninja version is more yuk than yukio. Sorry! ....as for Jean ? Necessary but overplayed IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSTZach Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Thanks for articulating. I had never heard anyone call Logan a creep for being attracted to Jean, so I was curious what the thinking was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gillbob316 Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I'd just like to address a little something about the idea that between meeting her in X1 and her dying at the end of X2 Wolverine barely knew Jean... and shouldn't be so wracked with guilt.I don't think it's being present for her sacrificial death at the end of X2 he's lamenting here... I think it's STABBING her to death at the end of X3 he's feeling guilt for. I mean I think that's obvious. He dreams of stabbing her. She has her long X3 hair. HE killed her, at the end of X3. That's what he's upset about in The Wolverine. Not her X2 Death.Though Jean wasn't in her right mind for the duration of X3, and Wolverine didn't really have any more "getting to know you" time with her, past the first two movies... she was Alive in X3, Wolverine still had feelings for her... and nobody is going to feel peachy keen about stabbing a woman they have feelings for in the gut and killing her.As for the movie on the whole...I dunno...Someone earlier was saying it was so much better than XO:W, which was stupid...And Origins WAS stupid, don't get me wrong. But this movie was pretty damn stupid too. I think people are just so eager to get past origins that they're overdoing praise on The Wolverine.I love Hugh Jackman. I love his Wolverine. I LOVE the X-Men. But these X-Men movies on the whole... are just a mess. I've ranted about it before... but in a pre "The Wolverine" world. I heard such kind words about The Wolverine pre-release that I hoped it would be different, but it was just more of the same imo...Take a bunch of mutants we haven't already used in the previous filmsChange them in ways that make them barely resemble the source materialTake a classic story arc or two from the comic books and alter it in ways that allow for more characters and fight scenesThrow it all into a new movie, slap a big X or Wolverine on the poster, and crank that sucker out so Marvel doesn't get their rights backI mean yeah, people hated Origins. Emma sucked. Deadpool sucked. Gambit sucked. None of them were good representations of their comic book characters, and it wasn't a good re-telling of the Weapon X story on the whole.But like, what's so damned great about Wolverine? Silver Samurai (Harada) wasn't Silver Samurai, despite Silver Samurai being part of the plot. Viper was a snake mutant with an array of powers she never had. Mariko, who in the grand tradition of Uncle Ben or Gwen Stacy, is a character whose death stuck, because she didn't have powers, or need to be resurrected for comic book purposes, so her permanent death inevitably MEANT something to Wolverine's story... and they don't even kill her!Same old hodgepodge of screwed up characters and butchered story, at the expense of more wire-fighting and CGI action with big robots, who have the power to suck Wolverine's mutant power from his bone marrow for some never wholly explained reason.Origins was a crap retelling of Weapon X, with butchered characters. This was a crap retelling of the Wolverine mini with butchered characters. *Shrug* It was a better FILM than Origins, no question... it had better effects, a better look, and fewer stupid "How did Gambit get on that roof?" technical/continuity errors...But I don't think it was any better as an X-Men adaptation or in an overall story sense. As was X3. As was, yes I'll say it, First Class.X1 was a good starting point. X2 built on that, while only adding a couple new characters to the fold, and still standing strong on the foundation the first movie built. Every movie since then seems to be, "Hey, which mutants haven't we used yet? Lets loosely base this on some well-known story from the comic book and just cram as many more of those suckers in as we can, whether it makes sense or not. And if they don't have a cool power that translates to a nice CGI effect, by god, make one up!"I haven't been happy with this franchise in years. They're a mess, as adaptations go. And I am firmly in the camp of people who wants it to revert to Marvel's hands. I need a fresh start here.I'm excited that DOFP is at least bringing some continuity back to the franchise on the whole, but it looks like it will still be much of the same. Classic story. Altered loads. Bunch more characters thrown into the mix for no real reason. Bishop, Blink, Warpath, Sunspot, Quicksilver... why the hell are they here? Oh, more mutants and more cool effects. Trask and the Sentinels are sensible additions that help the plot. Fine with those. I'm sure even Bishop's presence will play into the time-travel angle a bit, so I accept him. But the other four seem superfluous. (I think Singer pretty much confirmed that Quicksilver is just there to accommodate a cool sequence in his movie, that he didn't want to cut, when the controversy of Avengers Quicksilver vs X-Men Quicksilver arose)Ugh, this is like the umpteenth time I've ranted about this on the internet (and like at least the third on these very forums, lol) X-Men is my absolute favorite comic book franchise, but these movies... they pain me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM2 Dinobot Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 X3 is still my favorite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nessex Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) I like to look at the movie-verse as a parallel universe, like Ultimates or AoA - so it doesn't bother me too much when things don't mirror the 616. What does bother me is sloppy story-telling, bad editing, poor direction & lack of identity. The Wolverine started out with some great story telling & character development but kind of ran itself off the rails at the end. I thought they'd decided to dispense with super-hero nonsense in favour of telling an emotional story.... until the third act where everything went bananas... Which, when you look at the first 3 x-men films, is kinda what happened there too. The first two seemed interested in developing characters and telling stories, until the third act film, where everything went bananas. And not the cute dancing kind - LOL. Edited January 6, 2014 by Nessex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSTZach Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 X3 may be where they got the most physical, if I recall. It may have been the Phoenix, but he didn't know that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterPL Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 I think you people are dragging WAY too many comic book elements into the movie franchise. Try watching the films as someone who has never read the books (like Singer) and it's a lot easier to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DSTZach Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 (edited) It's funny, I was thinking the opposite -- the more you read the comics, the more sense that aspect of the movies makes. I mean, yes, the movies are completely different from the books, but as someone who was used to Wolverine's fixation on Jean from the comics, it all seemed perfectly normal in the movies. It may not have happened over the course of 20 years of stories, but an animalistic male falling hard for a sexy, nice-smelling telepathic woman in a leather outfit -- and her falling for him -- kept apart by her commitment and his honor, even as their attraction grew from afar, made total sense. And even if she was JUST a friend or a casual fling, feeling guilt over killing her is to be expected. A hunter killing his animal brothers for sport? Or a ninja? Not as much. Was the Phoenix Force even identified as an "other" in X3? Or just another aspect of Jean's powers and personality? I didn't think they went so far as to call it an alien possession. I enjoy both, by the way. Comics and movies. Almost prefer having a different story than being able to predict the ending. Edited January 6, 2014 by DSTZach Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nessex Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Was the Phoenix Force even identified as an "other" in X3? Or just another aspect of Jean's powers and personality? I didn't think they went so far as to call it an alien possession. The Phoenix in X3 was defined as a split in Jean's psyche that resulted from using her powers without limitation. It was definitely talked about as the 'dark side' of her personality, rather than an alien entity. I read Jean's appearances in The Wolverine as Logan's mind projecting his feelings and memories, rather than the actual return of some cosmic force. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TENIME_art Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Try watching the films as someone who has never read the books (like Singer) Can't...stop...laughing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx_6 Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 The 90's cartoon had a lot of the love triangle, if I recall. I thought that the quick version of it in the movie-verse made sense, just because my main X-men knowledge came from the cartoon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youbastards Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Not perfect, but 54 Viper is a good base for movie Viper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TM2 Dinobot Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Really wish they'd actually established her as a Hydra oppritive. :/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valo487 Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Maybe Wolverine felt so guilty because they realized after he killed Jean that they had Leech RIGHT THERE and it never occurred to anyone to try to neutralize her powers and talk her down.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkerbean Posted February 8, 2014 Share Posted February 8, 2014 Maybe Wolverine felt so guilty because they realized after he killed Jean that they had Leech RIGHT THERE and it never occurred to anyone to try to neutralize her powers and talk her down.... A man could go crazy thinking s#!t like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turtle Posted February 9, 2014 Share Posted February 9, 2014 Many men, good men, have gone mad trying to make sense of X3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx_6 Posted February 11, 2014 Share Posted February 11, 2014 I was planning to do this, too! Not perfect, but 54 Viper is a good base for movie Viper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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