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Man of Steel


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I'd say that WB makes good superhero movies. Nolan's Batman movies are amazing, and they count. Superman Returns wasn't amazing, but it wasn't terrible. Watchmen was also pretty well received. Green Lantern was ridiculously bad. Catwoman was... ugh. So while everyone else might think WB doesn't know what they're doing with superhero movies, I'd say that over the last ten years, 5/7 being good or better speaks in their favor.

As for Zod, it seems to me that with the story that is being set up, only Zod or Brainiac would make sense. Just based on the trailer, the movie looks like it'll be about the fear of the other concept and build from there. Zod, with a similar heritage, works best. Brainiac, as another other-worldly being with a connection to Krypton also works. Zod provides a great villain to Superman, while also, from a story-telling perspective, allowing some people to have a reasonable fear of Superman. From a story-telling perspective, it also lets us see that Superman is willing to reject aspects of his Kryptonian heritage in favor of his adoptive home-world. So for the story they're telling, I think Zod makes the most sense.

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The issue with Watchmen is that there was very little creativity apart from the technical details involved with making the film. The story, characters, etc. were all directly lifted from the book (with a couple of minor changes obviously). Now, maybe you can argue that WB had the good sense not to screw around with a good thing in that case, but I don't think that example does much to instill confidence in their ability to do something new and different with DC. Nolan's Bat-films are always the obvious exceptions, but in that case it seemed (to me) just the perfect fit of Nolan with the Batman mythos, and giving him free reign. Again, a good decision by WB, but one pretty restricted to the franchise. With Superman, the mix of creative elements with source material isn't as intuitive, and we haven't seen a gameplan to instill confidence yet (in fact, DC apparently didn't think the idea of doing a JLA film was a good one until the Avengers proved how successful it could be).

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I think a dark vision for Superman would be cool, realising it is not at all part of the essence of what Superman is. He is and always will be a boy scout. Even the other DC line up joke about him for his straight laced ways. I just wish they would take off the kid gloves, remove Costner from existence (all existence), and let Superman be a hero, but one that isn't going to take any crap from humanity. He grew up amongst humans as one of us. He knows what we are. He has no need to be one of us or accept our demands.

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The problem with Watchmen is that Snyder (ironically, like so many of the comics that were influenced by Watchmen) completely failed to convey the sophistication of the book and instead focused too much on the sex and the violence. It's telling that the movie almost slavishly reinterprets the comic... except when it comes to adding more gore and nudity.:confused:

As I said, I think the trailer looks good, and I think Cavill will make for a strong Superman. Snyder at least has the nerd cred, I'm just not sold on his vision.

BTW, if we want to talk about the ultimate example of WB executives having their heads up their @$$es, do you know who they are talking about to direct the Justice League? Frank freaking Miller. If you've seen even a few minutes of the Spirit (which they haven't, apparently), you know why this is an absurdly bad choice.

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Written by the team that wrote Green Lantern, and directed by Frank Miller.

nothing about that sounds remotely watchable.

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I think Snyder is a capable director. The problem is when he is allowed to have artistic direction and input into the story (see Sucker Punch).

In all fairness, Sucker Punch was his idea, his story. Granted it was probably born of dumping his toybox onto the floor and coming up with an excuse to play Danger Girl vs. Steampunk Nazi Zombies in Space but visually it held my attention. In that regard he's perfect for Man of Steel.

I do agree with others that WB is a hot mess when it comes to making DC films. As far as I'm concerned, their success with Batman is a fluke and it still manages to demonstrate an inability to maintain an ongoing franchise, given how the last film ended. Batman Begins was a fine launching pad for an ongoing series of films – maybe even a TV series – but Nolan's Dark Knight was a reluctant hero, a guy constantly looking for a way out of that batsuit. He wasn't the Batman I recognized from comics despite how entertaining the story might have been.

Green Lantern needed to be more "Wrath of Khan" and less "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" but I suppose it did a good job of introducing general audiences to the character. I wouldn't mind if future films like Justice League referred back to it if only because I don't think GL is worth a total reboot.

I just hope Man of Steel ends up being the catalyst not only for a new series of Superman films but the rest of the DC cinemaverse as well.

Oh, and I still want my fucking DC Minimates, damn it!

B)

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I agree- the problem with adapting a comic or book to film is that you are switching media types. It's an entirely different experience. Add to the fire that there are hundreds of stories told about said character- every person has their own take on what would or wouldn't make a great story. That where the line in the sand is drawn.

Movie vs. Story.

A movie is meant to entertain. A story is what gets you there. Two very different things, yet also very similar.

It reminds me of the old comic book debate- which is more important: Art or the story? I've read a lot of comics over the years and hands down it's story that ultimately wins. Take the recent Jim Lee 52 JLA for example. Great art to drool over, horrible story. Art provides a boost to keep you immersed in the story but what keeps the plot moving and holding your attention is more important.

To Mister's point- Green Lantern wasn't what it should have been, but now kids and non fanboys know who Green Lantern is thanks to the movie:

"oh yeah, that green guy with the ring who thinks of stuff and it appears".

That's how the movie studios think unfortunately. "How can we market this? Sell this? Promote it?" There's very few fanboys turned executives in the WB offices (I could completely wrong on this). It's profits, not story that they are after... and yeah, if the movie blow they still make money and always can try again or if they don't like the direction it was headed do a reboot. As comic fans, we have a nearly unlimited resource (LCS) for stories of our favorite heroes. For the general public who don't know any better (kids mainly) accept what Hollywood gives them. I'm victim to it myself. As a child of the 80's I knew of the comic character Batman, but it didn't really click with me until I saw the movie with Keaton. Keaton was and is my Batman. Just like my friend who grew up in the 70's, Reeves is his Superman, not Routh, not Cavill.

I'm glad they are even releasing another Superman movie. All bitching aside, remember years ago when we DIDN'T have an X-Men movie? How horrible was that? Remember Wizard's on going Casting Call section? "If only..." all of us thought. Then it happened. Imagine that movie didn't get made. Makes you think how much worse off we would have been.......maybe. :unsure:

Super hero movies will never be perfect- they can't be- but that's why we keep coming back- the carrot that's dangling in front of our noses always looks good when you're hungry for more.

Edited by Jeff
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Green Lantern needed to be more "Wrath of Khan" and less "Star Trek: The Motion Picture" but I suppose it did a good job of introducing general audiences to the character.

True, but I don't know if we should be happy that millions of people who didn't know anything about the character going in now think he's the worst ;)

This trailer looks surprisingly good, but I am so just so wary. Until/unless he finally makes a movie I like, to me Snyder's always going to be the guy that took Watchmen and somehow made it feel generic and mediocre.

The Pa Kent line doesn't bother me, it looks like it comes after someone sees Clark saving the bus and threatens to tell. He just doesn't want his kid getting dissected by the government or whatever!

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To add fuel to the fire does anyone see this movie as a good starting point to a JLA movie? If Supes is going to be darker does that mean Bats is going to be lighter (I don't see that working)?

Also what's up with all the water in the trailer? Are we going to get an Aquaman cameo in this movie?

I still think the Green Lantern movie can be worked into JLA ok, just don't even mention Hal or anything that happened on Earth in that previous movie, use John Stewart instead and keep Sinestro along with the rest of the GL Corps to add in the mix.

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To add fuel to the fire does anyone see this movie as a good starting point to a JLA movie? If Supes is going to be darker does that mean Bats is going to be lighter (I don't see that working)?

The problem there is one of Nolan's basic unwritten rules for his Batman universe is that there are no other heroes in it, nor was there even the concept of the costumed super-hero before Bruce Wayne cowls up. Harsh, but that's one of the only ways Batman works in his way of thinking. And he was quoted as needing to bring the same line of thinking to Superman, or else he could not conceive of a reason for Clark to put on tights and a cape. So Nolan's involvement hinges on this being a separate universe from his Batverse, or any other DC universe, if his interviews are to be believed.

But then, WB is really jealous of the Avengers success so they are likely to wave a large boat load of cash under Nolan's nose in an effort to change his mind. And Nolan would not be the first "artist" to abandon an original vision for one of dollar signs. Time will tell.

And for the record, as in the build up to Green Lantern, I want to be wrong. I want this movie to be really good, and reignite the Superman franchise, and in turn launch an entire JLA movie franchise. And there are reasons to be optimistic, but reasons to be concerned as well. Time will tell.

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There is no way that WB puts what they hope to turn into a billion doillar franchise in the hands of Frank Miller. I've read the stuff online but that would be the worst possible idea. If they feel that they need one person to steer the ship why not Bruce Timm, Geoff Johns, or Paul Dini. Someone who is very familure with the characters and has experience with long story telling format. Frank Miller gets the nod I will be so bummed.

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To add fuel to the fire does anyone see this movie as a good starting point to a JLA movie? If Supes is going to be darker does that mean Bats is going to be lighter (I don't see that working)?

Not that I think Superman the character is going to be darker (although the story certainly appears to be) but I think Batman would almost need to be a little lighter. Personally, I consider there to be two Batman characters; the Dark Knight who's Gotham's sworn guardian and the Caped Crusader who joins the Justice League on global and intergalactic adventures. It's hard to reconcile the two but this might be the time to do it.

Also what's up with all the water in the trailer? Are we going to get an Aquaman cameo in this movie?

In all seriousness, WB has been wanting to do an Aquaman movie for ten years now. I wouldn't be shocked if there was at least an Easter egg referring to Atlantis.

I still think the Green Lantern movie can be worked into JLA ok, just don't even mention Hal or anything that happened on Earth in that previous movie, use John Stewart instead and keep Sinestro along with the rest of the GL Corps to add in the mix.

Without spoiling anything, audiences might wonder where Hal ws when the shit hit the fan over Metropolis. The answer could be as simple as "off-world hunting Sinestro" but no, I don't think Green Lantern needs to be swept under the rug. Consider it a prologue. I'm all for adding a new human GL. I wanted a sequel with Kilowog in human form on Earth training John Stewart while Hal was off in space hunting a power mad Sinestro. Bring down the budget and amp up the story.

What's interesting is that there have been rumors swirling about Joseph Gordon-Levitt making an appearance in Man of Steel and/or Justice League, rumors that were shot down by his people but not entirely denied by MoS producer Chris Nolan. I know the studio thinks tying future films to the Dark Knight trilogy might help bolster audience enthusiasm but I think that's a mistake. The DC cinemaverse needs a clean slate.

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What's interesting is that there have been rumors swirling about Joseph Gordon-Levitt making an appearance in Man of Steel and/or Justice League,

This would be horrible! Nothing against JGL, he's an excelent actor. And the "Batman as a symbol" theme worked very well for TDK trilogy but it has to be Bruce Wayne Batman if he's going to team up with Superman (& WonderWoman & the rest). It would be like having Rhodey/War Machine help form the Avengers instead of Tony Stark. Like you said, clean slate, leave TDK behind and move on.

And I think they have Superman's girlfriends mixed up. Amy Adams would have made a great Lana instead of Lois; either way I won't mind watching her on screen :biggrin:

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I disagree with Lurch. . .it would be MUCH MUCH WORSE to do that than to have Rhodey replace Stark! :lol: Seriously though, Batman is Wayne. Nolan did his thing, and it's fine that the movie ended the way it did, but c'mon now. I don't wanna see John Q. Madeformovies in the role of one of the most important and iconic superheroes in existence (in the top 2 anyway).

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I could SEE how Superman could work in the context of Dark Knight universe especially if they have the Gotham Nuke incident be his inspiration. The self sacrifice of the Batman makes Superman want to put on the tights and help people because he knows he could have saved Batman AND Gotham.

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The comic book fan in me really likes the idea of Superman being the first superhero in a new DC cinemaverse. Trying to wedge it into Nolan's Batman trilogy just seems forced. I'd rather they start with a clean slate.

Still, I can't help wondering where we'd be if Man of Steel had happened instead of Superman Returns. WB wanted to reboot both Batman and Superman franchises side by side and have them dovetail into a "vs" flick. That might have altered the direction Nolan took with TDKR. Actually, TDKR probably wouldn't have happened at all since everyone was signed on for a three-picture deal. As planned, the last film would have been Batman vs. Superman, directed by Troy helmer Wolfgang Petersen. :wacko:

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